5.3 supercharged Water/Meth Nozzle help
06-17-2016, 10:49 PM
#1
5.3 supercharged Water/Meth Nozzle help Got my 5.3 running pretty good. Stock 99 5.3 with 150k on it. 72lb Bosch injectors from FIC. Running a centrifugal torqstorm supercharger with 3" pulley (should make 10-12psi). Running an old Snow performance water/meth kit 100ml nozzle (350ish ml at 220psi) pre supercharger and 375ml nozzle in TB spacer. Total flow is 875ml via my AEM meth flow gauge. Running straight wiper fluid -20 blue stuff for now. Running new FAST IAT sensor in charge pipe 8" before TB as well as a innovate EGT probe at same location. EGT gauge is set for 32-500*F and very accurate. I had a large FMIC installed but it increased engine/trans temps by 20*F instantly and I'm not having that. First nozzle (100ml) comes on at -7" vacuum and second nozzle is activated at 2psi via solenoid.
Today was the first day after removing the FMIC at at the end of a 9.6psi boost run for 4s prob my IAT sensor was reading 194*F and pulled 4* of timing so only 12.5* at 4600rpms and 9.6psi. Both nozzles injecting but my EGT/IATE gauge was reading like 130's but they are between the pre SC and TB nozzles so its only seeing the pre SC temps and not the large 375ml TB nozzle. Thats why I put the EGT at the same point as the IAT as I know the IAT sucks at getting real temps. I trust the EGT gauge honestly. A/F was 10.8-11.3:1 in boost which is rich but its due to the meth… I don't want to lean it out so the fueling is safe if something goes wrong.
WHen I calculate the 875ml it comes out to like 11gph total which is what devils own calculator said I should be around. Do you guys think I need to inject more pre supercharger? How much should I be injecting total? The motor is pretty safe and I'm only planning to command 17* total timing and I run 93 pump gas. I also plan on stepping up to 50/50 mix but I hear water is better at lowering temps over methanol.
I setup my own 2 stage system as I wanted the meth coming on below boost to help cool the SC. What do you guys think? I should be in the 550hp range.
Today was the first day after removing the FMIC at at the end of a 9.6psi boost run for 4s prob my IAT sensor was reading 194*F and pulled 4* of timing so only 12.5* at 4600rpms and 9.6psi. Both nozzles injecting but my EGT/IATE gauge was reading like 130's but they are between the pre SC and TB nozzles so its only seeing the pre SC temps and not the large 375ml TB nozzle. Thats why I put the EGT at the same point as the IAT as I know the IAT sucks at getting real temps. I trust the EGT gauge honestly. A/F was 10.8-11.3:1 in boost which is rich but its due to the meth… I don't want to lean it out so the fueling is safe if something goes wrong.
WHen I calculate the 875ml it comes out to like 11gph total which is what devils own calculator said I should be around. Do you guys think I need to inject more pre supercharger? How much should I be injecting total? The motor is pretty safe and I'm only planning to command 17* total timing and I run 93 pump gas. I also plan on stepping up to 50/50 mix but I hear water is better at lowering temps over methanol.
I setup my own 2 stage system as I wanted the meth coming on below boost to help cool the SC. What do you guys think? I should be in the 550hp range.
Last edited by customblackbird; 06-17-2016 at 10:54 PM.
06-18-2016, 12:46 AM
#2
I know you said your AFR is between 10.8-11.3 but you suspect it's rich because of the meth? If you do the math, you're really not seeing that much meth (extra fuel) spraying washer solvent (30% meth/70% water). I wouldn't say enough to drastically change your AFRs really. What are your AFRs without the solvent, or have you never logged being on 93 pump?
06-18-2016, 09:11 AM
#3
You need some dyno time, pull ignition timing with the engine hot and see where torque falls off. You might be able to reduce timing to 8 or 9* from where you are without significant loss of engine torque or power.
The water/meth might not make a big difference to IAT reading but it will help keep the EGT down and keep the fragile cast piston happy. You should wrap/coat/blanket any of your exposed hot exhaust system to help keep underhood temps under control, especially since you can lower EGT manually using water/meth if needed. A ductwork might be applicable to help with underhood iat (and through that, actual IAT) focus on ducting/external temp control solutions for reducing IAT first.
Dont worry about stationary temp increases due to using a FMIC unless it is affecting drivability. Pay attention to the driving IAT, while moving the vehicle, unless you sit in traffic 50% or more of the time the stationary readings wont matter as much. Use a high quality intercooler, not an Ebay core, for better results. Make sure all plumbing on the intake side is made of aluminum, bare (not painted or wrapped).
The dyno time is also used to 'clean up the a/f ratio' you can pull a little fuel and timing at first, get it to around 11.8:1 usually thats about as far as I go for stock engines on baby boost, the key is the low timing. You can advance it for the dyno run to get the 'best looking graph possible' but you may find only a couple horsepower extra going from 10->whatever. The compressor is what makes the power, let the compressor do it's job, do not push for more timing.There will be a diminishing returns should be obvious. Stay as far away from that diminishing returns as possible, as temperatures increase it quickly becomes a low ceiling (you run "over the edge" faster as temps increase) in other words, you might see that you can advance the timing a couple * and pick up 10whp through a 4th gear pass. But if you held the throttle down and kept going, through 5th for example, you might push the temperatures "over the edge" and into fractured piston territory. Temps have a habit of building over time, you go through 4th, the end of the run is hotter than at the beginning. If you let the engine rest on the dyno that will NOT simulate a real-world scenario of highway racing where you are in it alot more often/more time and for longer periods, temps will escalate out of control and something could melt. This is why we use minimal timing found via dynometer (think of the dyno as the gentlest thing you will ever do with the car, so all future timing numbers need to be less than whatever peak power timing # you found on the dyno).
The water/meth might not make a big difference to IAT reading but it will help keep the EGT down and keep the fragile cast piston happy. You should wrap/coat/blanket any of your exposed hot exhaust system to help keep underhood temps under control, especially since you can lower EGT manually using water/meth if needed. A ductwork might be applicable to help with underhood iat (and through that, actual IAT) focus on ducting/external temp control solutions for reducing IAT first.
Dont worry about stationary temp increases due to using a FMIC unless it is affecting drivability. Pay attention to the driving IAT, while moving the vehicle, unless you sit in traffic 50% or more of the time the stationary readings wont matter as much. Use a high quality intercooler, not an Ebay core, for better results. Make sure all plumbing on the intake side is made of aluminum, bare (not painted or wrapped).
The dyno time is also used to 'clean up the a/f ratio' you can pull a little fuel and timing at first, get it to around 11.8:1 usually thats about as far as I go for stock engines on baby boost, the key is the low timing. You can advance it for the dyno run to get the 'best looking graph possible' but you may find only a couple horsepower extra going from 10->whatever. The compressor is what makes the power, let the compressor do it's job, do not push for more timing.There will be a diminishing returns should be obvious. Stay as far away from that diminishing returns as possible, as temperatures increase it quickly becomes a low ceiling (you run "over the edge" faster as temps increase) in other words, you might see that you can advance the timing a couple * and pick up 10whp through a 4th gear pass. But if you held the throttle down and kept going, through 5th for example, you might push the temperatures "over the edge" and into fractured piston territory. Temps have a habit of building over time, you go through 4th, the end of the run is hotter than at the beginning. If you let the engine rest on the dyno that will NOT simulate a real-world scenario of highway racing where you are in it alot more often/more time and for longer periods, temps will escalate out of control and something could melt. This is why we use minimal timing found via dynometer (think of the dyno as the gentlest thing you will ever do with the car, so all future timing numbers need to be less than whatever peak power timing # you found on the dyno).
06-30-2016, 12:08 PM
#4
thanks for the responses.
Ive pulled fuel out and got the engine running pretty good. 11:1's AFR. The 30/70 wiper mix actually richened the mix up alittle... prob .3:1 AFR. All logging was done on 93 pump as thats all I put in it.
Kintal0n, Ive had the timing lower at like 15* total and the car felt good, new timing felt even better but I haven't gotten much WOT boost runs as Ive been playing with the meth. I dont believe in Dynos, I tune in the real world, how I drive the car and thats why I log.
I plan on coating the headers over the winter if possible but I wanted it together for the summer and didn't have the funds to do it before. Heat soak has gotten the SC head unit and piping to the 120-145*F range (piping is in the 120-131*F range) SC head unit around 140-145*F range but thats spaying meth into it. I'm going back to the FMIC for future use.
Without the FMIC i was spraying a 175ml nozzle pre SC but at 7" of vacuum (2 stage meth) and then the second hit of 375ml in the TB spacer. I ran it like this for a few days and pulled the TB off and found a large puddle of wiper fluid in the intake.My theory is the large amount of fluid doesnt have enough time/room to get into the intake charge and it puddled. So i'm removing the TB nozzle and putting it 20" or so down the charge pipe (which I can do now that Im running the FMIC again). Im going to spray the same amount of fluid 375 pre TB for EGT/detonation and additional charge temp dropping), then run either the 100 or 175ml pre SC before the IC. I know I have to worry about puddling in the IC but I'm not worried as its not all that much compared to what most spray through a compressor. FMIC should be good and I'll have to figure out how to keep engine temps in check. I will prob swap coolant out for straight distilled water and a wetter agent which could compensate for FMIC temp increase.
I also purchased a AEM progressive meth controller (voltage not MAP based)... not sure if I want to tap into the MAP sensor or the TPS sensor voltage for activation but I def want them coming on right before boost and ramping up. I also picked up a 50mm TIAL BOV Q knock off from VS racing and a 44mm wyntom BOV so I can run one before and after the IC.
Ive pulled fuel out and got the engine running pretty good. 11:1's AFR. The 30/70 wiper mix actually richened the mix up alittle... prob .3:1 AFR. All logging was done on 93 pump as thats all I put in it.
Kintal0n, Ive had the timing lower at like 15* total and the car felt good, new timing felt even better but I haven't gotten much WOT boost runs as Ive been playing with the meth. I dont believe in Dynos, I tune in the real world, how I drive the car and thats why I log.
I plan on coating the headers over the winter if possible but I wanted it together for the summer and didn't have the funds to do it before. Heat soak has gotten the SC head unit and piping to the 120-145*F range (piping is in the 120-131*F range) SC head unit around 140-145*F range but thats spaying meth into it. I'm going back to the FMIC for future use.
Without the FMIC i was spraying a 175ml nozzle pre SC but at 7" of vacuum (2 stage meth) and then the second hit of 375ml in the TB spacer. I ran it like this for a few days and pulled the TB off and found a large puddle of wiper fluid in the intake.My theory is the large amount of fluid doesnt have enough time/room to get into the intake charge and it puddled. So i'm removing the TB nozzle and putting it 20" or so down the charge pipe (which I can do now that Im running the FMIC again). Im going to spray the same amount of fluid 375 pre TB for EGT/detonation and additional charge temp dropping), then run either the 100 or 175ml pre SC before the IC. I know I have to worry about puddling in the IC but I'm not worried as its not all that much compared to what most spray through a compressor. FMIC should be good and I'll have to figure out how to keep engine temps in check. I will prob swap coolant out for straight distilled water and a wetter agent which could compensate for FMIC temp increase.
I also purchased a AEM progressive meth controller (voltage not MAP based)... not sure if I want to tap into the MAP sensor or the TPS sensor voltage for activation but I def want them coming on right before boost and ramping up. I also picked up a 50mm TIAL BOV Q knock off from VS racing and a 44mm wyntom BOV so I can run one before and after the IC.
