Not sure how the base fuel the engine is running is relevant? If he was running pump gas would the gains be any less? Like I said, it was an extreme example showing what methanol is capable of in large volumes.

Also if you can up your turbos efficiency range and knock out a ton of charge temp I don't see how water inj. on a methanol fueled engine is "dumb".

 

People running meth only are usually dumping in so much meth, I really cant see water cooling anything the methanol hasnt already.

And of course base fuel is relevant. The OP isnt asking about running a full blown methanol drag car, otherwise he wouldnt even be asking about progressive controllers ! as his entire fuel system would be methanol based.

 

Whether the OP is a blown methanol engine or not, it makes no difference is the point I was making. Running meth as your base fuel won't do anything for turbo efficiency gains. Spraying pre-turbo will, regardless of the base fuel you run.

Engines running straight methanol as a base fuel can squeak out more power per pound of boost spraying meth or water pre-turbo. These are all gains taking place outside the CC.

 

Ive been messing around alot with water/meth and FMIC. I tried running wiper fluid with no IC and I couldnt get temps lower than 140ish on a small blower on the street. The issue is that water/meth isn't active 95% of the time until your in boost so around town you just keep heating and heatsoaking everything. This was without a IC and a 2psi full on (non progressive) switch.

Then i tried a cheap FMIC 31x12x3.25" (82-92 TAs have no air flow through the bumper) and IATS dropped to the low 100's like 100-115*F (cooler day though) and that was with no water/meth injection really. But it increased my engine temps almost 20*F due to the air blocking/heating up the rad alittle more. So I removed the FMIC and tried the water/meth injection. Main reason I removed it was due to engine temp increase but also I got a weird flutter issue at light throttle. Small BOV located near the TB isn't optimal on a SC car. between the SC and IC is best.

Forefed86 on 3rd gen.org said to spray pre SC to help with IAT cooling. After alot of reading on the web alot of people do it. Figured might as well give it a shot. I sprayed a 325ml and a 175ml nozzle, 175ml pre SC and 375ml in the TB. It worked but I wasn't getting a ton of instant temp drop and I ended up collecting alot of water in the intake. IATs still in the 140-160*F range. Water collection was bc I had the 325ml nozzle literally spraying into the intake (back of the TB blade) and it didn't have alot of time in the air track to absorb.

I ended up swapping back the FMIC, Changed the setup added a cheap 44mm BOV between the SC and IC, found a coupler with bungs specifically for meth injection and moved the TB nozzle to about 18" from the TB so it has time to absorb into the air. Still going to be spraying 100-175ml pre SC as of now. But I threw in the AEM progressive controller into the mix. Its not the one with the internal MAP sensor as you can only program 1-35psi activation and I want mine to come on in the 85kpa range to help with IAT temp rise. Getting the one that taps into any MAP sensor or MAF etc allowed me to tap into my stock 2bar MAP sensor and its set to come on alittle before the 100kpa mark (about 5-7" of vacuum) but since its progressive it barely pushes any water at first. I also drained a gallon or so of 70water/30coolant mix from the rad and put straight distilled water in hopes of combating the engine temp rise from the FMIC. I'm going to let it mix altitle and then drain more and add more straight distilled water. I have no results yet s Im doing another new exhaust, fuel tank/pump swap and changing alot. But I expect it to work correctly.

You might ask why I run wiper fluid (easy to get) and not 50/50 mix or straight meth. Water absorbs a lot more heat as already stated, I run 93 pump gas and my 5.3 LS already has low compression and I'm only running about 10lbs of boost. The higher water is more for detonation control and IAT cooling and not really for the meth enrichment. I will prob step up to 50/50 mix down the road but right now I'm getting it all worked out. Straight meth is no joke, burns clear, flash point of like 147*F and corrosive.

Side note I figured out that the snow nozzles flow rates are rated at 60psi, so your 625ml nozzle flows like 1,400ml roughly. I know this because my AEM meth flow failsafe gauge measures the actual flow and my 325ml flows like 700ml, combined with the 175ml nozzle they both flow about 1080ml roughly. This is with a 220psi pump and 16psi check valve.

 

Were you seeing knock with any setup? 140* isn’t very high. If you’re only running 10lbs I would ditch the intercooler and spray everything pre-supercharger. This will flash a lot of the fluid before it exits the blower (most likely all of the methanol). It will also help atomize the mix before it hits the intake so it won’t puddle. Cooling off the blower as it’s compressing air will actually improve the efficiency of the blower itself. With no intercooler in place, all injection should take place pre-blower on a setup like yours IMO.

Also remember meth not only enriches the mixture, it raises the octane which helps with knock as well. You can literally spray 5x what you’re spraying if you switched to 100% meth and pulled fuel from your tune. You’d see 5x the cooling and pick up a ton of octane. I’m not suggesting you do this, just using it as an example. May try 50/50 and see if you like the results. At 50/50 by volume, the mixture isn’t flammable and is still relatively safe.

I found to much water in the CC just zaps power as well. I picked up almost 3mph turning my water/meth injection off (17gph of 50/50) at the track. Back to back runs, same boost levels. I was on E85 with a decent intercooler didn’t need water/meth to stay out of detonation. I used it mainly as a safety net. I assumed the engine would bog or break up if I was spraying too much. (it didn’t) I’ve since dropped down to 2gph pre turbo and 4gph at the TB with washer fluid. I saw no noticeable performance gain/loss with the kit on/off at these levels. But my plugs do read cooler with the water/meth active.

 

So low boost, low compression, and you believe you have some issue with detonation ?

Why is that ?

I wouldnt say my 9.0:1 is low, I do have a decent intercooler, and I've run 25psi plenty of times on pump fuel with no problems. Although I do also have the option of using meth if things are warmer or of I'm somewhere I might get some grip to make use of any extra power it can offer.
But most of the time there's no point as traction is always the limiting factor.

It sounds like you're injecting a ton of fluid....a ton of water on an engine that really has no need for it at all ( although if no IC then yes you may have needed some of it, but at only 10psi ? )

 

I really don’t’ think you need to keep the IC for 10lbs. But if you really want one another solution would be a small A2W IC that doesn’t block the radiator.

Even without ICE or a heat exchanger they are just as effective as the junky A2A IC you have now. And you could ICE it down on special track occasions and really pick up.

 

Well IAT temps are only as accurate as the sensor/gauge. I run an EGT gauge in the charge pipe and see 140-160*F range with very little boost if any on only street driving, When boost comes in the charge temps will rise quickly 10-20*F depending on the pull. I dont feel like 140-160*F is hot either but with a stock cast motor and shitty 93 pump gas its cheap insurance to spray the water/meth. My FAST open element IAT sensor that the PCM gets IAT temps from says I was in the 160-190ish range and pulled a bunch of timing.

yes I know about the meth increasing the octane. 70/30 mix showed a bump of .3:1 richer on my WB02. 50/50 is the highest I would ever go and that would prob drop AFR .5:1.

I've felt the over spraying feeling which was the last time it was out and it had puddling in the intake. While I dont feel it was over spraying I think the location of the nozzle wasn't the best. But I have some more nozzles coming in and I'm going to play with it and see how it does pre SC and now 18" away from the TB. I do feel however that the progressive controller is going to make the world of difference on delivery.

 

Ive only been up to about 9-10psi, motor should make 12psi If I'm lucky with another 1000rpms (only making 9ish psi at 4500rpms). Stock LM7 compression is like 9.5:1 I thought? 93 pump gas is the cheapest I can get so always worried about that.

Well thats the thing I wasn't spraying that much fluid with the FMIC, It was only with no IC that I was spraying the 1000ml just recently. Going by devils own calculator I need a 9-10gph setup at my HP and RPM. Thats why I picked up some more nozzles so maybe I will spray a smaller amount and try to get the best atomization.

From what Ive read or whats been suggested that anything over 4-6psi needs some form or IC, wether it be chemical or A2A or A2W etc. An increase of 10*F per PSI above ambient is common and that means at 6psi your at 60*F above ambient. So a 90*F day your at 150*F IATs. While thats not 200*F its still considerably higher than ambient temps of 90*F. While thats prob impossible to get that kind of temp on the street when seeing boost only like 5 times for a sec or 2 isnt going to do a whole lot cooling wise with meth/water and the headunit is going to heat up to 150*F on its own like Ive seen. My SC pulls air from pass side and the tubing goes over the header so my inlet tube filter temps are reaching 130ish*F on their own before the SC even compresses it and heats it up more. hoping the FMIC helps keep the temps down out of boost and the water/meth is extra when boost kicks in.

Best way to save a motor is to never let it detonate. I run 18* timing at WOT now and given the Shitty 93 pump gas, medium IAT temps the meth is their to save my ***. I'm probably going to be dropping meth to about 700ml total with the FMIC and hope I can keep the motor cool. Im spoiled with 175-180* engine temps so when I see 195-200*F I get alittle antsy with the FMIC.

 

An A2W is just not going to work for me. Didn't want to add anything like a fluid storage tank, pump etc and complicate. Even if I spray meth pre SC and the IC heats it back up if I can stay close to ambient I'm good with that. I also dont race it, 99% street car that I want to be more streetable! I just removed my new 4" catback and sumped tank to swap back to a stock 3" style catback and OEM tank to make the car more streetable. nothing wrong with it and ran good but looking for pure street now.

 

Sure the meth will richen the tune, but you simply pull the fuel from your VE table to bring your AFR back in check. Suppose it depends how much timing you’re running, but at 140* you shouldn’t need to pull any timing. Read the plugs, they’ll give you a better indication that the IAT sensor.

The least amount of fluid necessary is the best when using heavy water percentages IMO. Without a monster ignition system it takes surprisingly little volumes of water to start dropping power. Check out Riceracing.com if you get a chance. They are firm believers in straight water to fight detonation. You should see the ignition systems they run though! You’re around 17gph at 1080cc. That’s quite a bit of fluid for only 10lbs with a 70/30 mix. Spraying pre-charger will help, but If your charge temps are really that low the water isn’t going to vaporize in the intake tract very well no matter where you spray it. The methanol will, so 50/50 would probably work better in your case.

I really don’t believe you can feel “over spraying”. Sure, you can drown the motor the point it will be way down on power or stumble/miss, but my setup was silky smooth to redline and felt great. It was making serious power too trapping 156 or so… but simply shutting the AUX INJ off I jumped to 158 which is a pretty huge.

Heat soak from the head unit isn’t super relevant IMO. You have to think the airflow is moving FAST. As long as you have a good “fresh” air supply, air is constantly being displaced with little time to “soak up” the heat form the head unit/charge pipe etc. I wouldn’t get hung up on that. IAT sensors are usually relatively slow to react. Very typical for me to see 130ish IAT temps sitting in the staging lanes and 140 after the burnout. Yet 2 seconds after I start the run they have dropped to 100ish before rising again. The sensors themselves can also get heat soaked.

With moderate timing, I really think you’d be fine ditching the IC with your current nozzles (or slightly less) pre-charger at 50/50. (watch plugs!)

 

Thats what I have done, pulled a percentage of the VE in the 120+kpa ranges.

I plan on pulling the plugs soon but I the entire pass side I can't get to due to SC inlet piping and now heat shielding. But looking under the car the other day I saw an exhaust leak at the front pass primary... so much for the Mr gasket ultra seals being good. i did pull them like 20 miles or so ago and they didn't look bad, the water really steam cleans them lol.

I'm def going to 50/50 in the future but for now its figuring out what the motor wants and likes and nozzle placement/sizing. While I would agree the IC or the Meth isn't necessary and prob overkill that's kinda where I'm going with it. I had the meth kit already so All i got in it is the progressive controller and some nozzles/tubing etc.

When i was spraying the 1080ml at lower rpms (3000 rpms) I was already in boost and due to the 100% pump injection (no progressive controller yet) the motor had a very noticeable BOG, almost like a rev limiter when I kept spinning it to 4500rpms. Too much water was blowing out the spark I'm sure.

While I agree that the air is moving so fast that heat soak doesn't affect it as much I still feel like heat-soak is a problem. The head unit is where all the work is being done and heat being generated, even the minute time it spends in their it heats the air on top of compressing it and heating it more. Then it sends the hot air to the IC, which will heat up and heat soak affecting the air outlet temps as well. Since A2A require lots of ambient air flow that means it will never get cooler than ambient but that doesn't mean the IC can't heat soak if airflow isn't as sufficient as it should be (cue 87 TA with bottom feeding cooling system) and now you have a FMIC that doesn't get the amount of airflow it should so the IC slowly heat soaks and heats the charge temp along with it. Spraying pre SC could cool the charge/head unit enough to band-aid the lack of air through the FMIC and keep the whole system at a lower operating temp than it would without meth injection. Sure its counter productive a FMIC with not enough airflow lol and a injection kit spraying and the FMIC just heating it back up lol but they will find a happy medium.

Now the IAT vs spark tables. The OEM tables was pulling 4-5* but 150*F IATs, and with a max of 7-8* by 190*F i think based off memory. I left them along with only minute changes to save the motor if spraying meth failed. But since have reduced timing retard vs IAT to almost nothing. Stock tables end at 190*F ish temps.

The way I figure it is the amount I spray pre SC won't make it to the TB/motor so whatever I'm spraying after the IC is what the motor see's so how much is good? 700ml? I have a 325ml snow nozzle currently but I have a few different AEM ones coming. I dont think I want more than 700ml if the IC is lowering temps already. Also since my wiper tanks are located in the engine compartment and heat up with the rest of the compartment does that affect temp drops? I thought about putting a large tank in the hatch area and relocating the pump to remove some of the heat from the fluid.

 

What’s the total timing at 10lbs on the map? …before anything is pulled via IAT or otherwise. What’s the end goal? If you’re just looking for 10lbs safely on a street car I’d think you’d want to do it with minimal additional parts/systems?

Hard to access plugs are a bummer, might have to put in the time at least once to find your leanest cylinder. Hopefully it’s on the accessible side or best case they all look alike. Really should toss a new plug in after any changes to get a read.

I’d be more worried about the raise in block/core temps than heat soak from the head unit. The IC itself has enough surface area that it can become an effective heat sink initially and heat up the air slightly before enough cool air flows over it. I was suggesting running without it.

Cooler fluid never hurts, but I doubt you’ll see any measurable gains without something like ice.

I can tell you first hand the pressure drop across that IC and cooling ability is crapo when compared to a “real” IC. At 10lbs the pressure drop may be really low, but I bet you are losing some pressure across that core. Not a big deal with a low boost turbo car, but pretty huge deal on a blower car. That IC is dirt cheap, it’s not a lot of money lost. You’ll lose weight, free up air flow to radiator, and pick up boost without it. Seems like a win-win situation. Spraying all your fluid pre-charger should provide all the cooling you need.

If your set on an IC, I’d get a decent one in there. Shouldn’t need a huge IC for 10lbs. A smaller “low profile” brand name IC would block less of the radiator and work better.

What do you run for a fan/shroud? If you can get a monster fan in there and get the coolant temps down to the 170-180 range when you’re leaning on the boost it would be a plus. 2-speed Taurus fan is always my suggestion.

 

At 10lbs I should be around 17-18* total timing before timing is pulled. Last log before I had reduced the IAT retard I was down to like 11* in boost as it was pulling at least 5* as the IAT was reading 190* with no IC and just the Meth. With the IC way before I had IAT temps of 100-130max.

I'm looking for street friendly 10-12psi without outrageous temps IAT and coolant. System needs to be safe enough in case I get bad gas or have to sit in traffic etc but I would like to get the most safe power out of it. I had it at 15* total max timing at one point and was convinced by you that I could run 18* easily and that I was leaving alot on the table. 3* could be 30hp or more depending on the setup. The FMIC is pretty fool proof, nothing to break or stop working etc as its as low tech as you can get. The meth like i said is a safety thing... like an additional cover my *** and allow me to up the timing safely to get alittle more out of it while providing more cooling.

Getting to the plugs on that side isn't that bad... takes maybe 6min to remove everything but its not something I'm going to do all the time as I have to remove the pre SC nozzle, filter and tubing, heat shield.

Understood about the IC quality... it is what it is. The IC itself is pretty decent quality and thought It was a plate and bar but apparently its the more efficient tube and fin. Inside looks nice and open and I believe pressure drop is very low on it at low boost levels. I think its rated at .5psi pressure drop below 15psi and 2psi at 30psi.

Here's the deal with the IC as a heat sink, sitting still and low speed the IATs (IC) heat up due to higher rpm at low speed 1st gear etc and since I make boost so quickly it heats it up fast. But as soon as I get some speed 35mph+ I can actually see a drop in IAT temps this is something that NEVER happened without the IC and just a short pipe to the TB. Temps without the IC always stayed warm and never dropped and then would heat up when I got on it and then stay like that for a while...never really a drop in temps. This is something I thought I could combat with meth injection earlier (7" of vacuum) so the meth was engaged for a longer amount of time and more often but I never saw anything noticeable. However I agree about all the other positives of removing it.

Rating of the IC must handle the HP and CFM of the blower. I think the TS blower is 1100cfm or something and putting me at 550hp I couldn't find a blower much smaller than the one I got (the 31x12x3.25") is the thinnest and is only rated to 800hp supposedly but reading about them said they are pretty efficient up to about 600hp. Show me a core that has the 3" inlets and is thinner than 3" and can support 600hp to make it a worthwhile upgrade over my current one.

Rad is a HOWE 2 core alumium fabbed 28"x19", 16lb cap, was running 70/30 water/coolant mix for a -10*F rating but I just removed a gallon and threw in 1 gallon of distilled to help increase the waters ability to remove heat and drop temps. But it requires me to drain and fill with coolant for winter storage. The fan is the biggest baddest I could find... new Mark IV 2 speed off ebay with a custom controller. Temps are pretty good 170-180* without the IC. One log I was sitting in traffic and temps got to 190*F and maybe alittle more if I remember correctly. I honesty dont like when a motor gets to 200*F even tho I know they are designed to run at 220*F. My 2014 ram CC runs at 196-212 and it bothers me lol... just a personal thing.

 

I get the budget thing, believe me. I ran the same IC, mine was tube/fin as well. I seriously doubt the “china rating” means a darn thing or that that IC was ever pressure/CFM tested. None of the claims on Ebay china parts should be believed IMO. The core density on the china IC’s is very poor. Easily seen by looking in the inlet/outlet. Treadstone cores are much better, Garrets are some of the best. Made a huge difference on my setup, but we aren’t comparing like combos, so I don’t really know.

I’d want something like this horizontal flow deal on there personally.
https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...C+Viper++968HP

Even this one would stomp the one you have now IMO.
https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...rcooler++666HP

I see used low profile procharger IC”s in the classifieds all the time. I was thinking something like the one pictured below. The lower profile might help with air flow to the radiator.

That’s about as good as a single fan setup gets, not much room for improvement there! The 2nd fan on my C5 doesn't kick on high till 225*, but NA cars don’t need to worry about 200+* IAT’s mixing in with those higher coolant temps. Figure CC temps are what really matters. If the blocks 25-30* hotter so are they, right? So are you cancelling out the cooler IAT’s gained from the IC by running hotter coolant temps? I’ve got no evidence to indicate that’s not total BS, but it sounds possible? Air is in and out of the motor so quickly I have a hard time buying into any heat soak theories.

With your current meth setup I still think if you progressively shot it all pre-charger and ditched the IC you’d be better off. I’m not an expert in supercharged hot air cars by any means. I’m guessing off what I’ve seen in the past with my turbo/SC setups. I’m also putting together a twin turbo hot air LS now so I might be a little biased.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.