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@dbrods.... The rings are supposed to be reusable but have seen a few that look ovaled out after removing the head. Have you experienced that at all?
I've reused them before. They only difference I've seen is the cutter part is flattened by about 0.001 and the depth from the base to the top on a new one is 0.007. 0.004 is what it takes to clean up a head to remove the cuts. So that extra 0.001 that is missing isn't a issue.
I've thought about those fancy gaskets a few times but couldn't bring myself to spend $400 on headgaskets, especially for a $500 engine. Maybe if you can reuse them 4 times it would be a draw with LS9 gaskets in the long run.
I'v seen this on dirt track sprint engines.. I have seen the heads pulled and replaced reusing both gaskets and rings at the track, but then your taking about guys that spend 35k on a motor to win a 500 dollar prize.. LOL
When you get past 1300whp the LS9s come up a little short keeping 4 bolt heads down. They definitely aren't for everyone.
True that, I'm missing a few bars to use that much power. An honest 900hp is enough to run mid 8's and bust a 10pt cage cert. I think 1000'ish is plenty to have fun with and keep maintenance down while still going respectably fast in a street car.
Have you pushed an aluminum block past 1300whp or you talking iron? I've seen cracked sleeves much over 1100 or whatever a billet borg cranks out on kill. Rest of engine looked spotless, just cracked the sleeve at the base and started ticking when it got hot.
True that, I'm missing a few bars to use that much power. An honest 900hp is enough to run mid 8's and bust a 10pt cage cert. I think 1000'ish is plenty to have fun with and keep maintenance down while still going respectably fast in a street car.
Have you pushed an aluminum block past 1300whp or you talking iron? I've seen cracked sleeves much over 1100 or whatever a billet borg cranks out on kill. Rest of engine looked spotless, just cracked the sleeve at the base and started ticking when it got hot.
The Aluminum Gen 4 5.3 blocks are very strong. Never seen a cracked sleeve before and pushed a few past 1100.
The Aluminum Gen 4 5.3 blocks are very strong. Never seen a cracked sleeve before and pushed a few past 1100.
I'm not sure the exact power but it was an aluminum Gen 4 5.3 that had been beat on pretty good for awhile, trapped 155+ at 4000lbs. Swapped to an iron block and give it more hell!
They use a stainless ring with 3 cutters machined in the top of the ring. When you torque the head down the rings cut into the head 0.004. The graphite gasket seals the oil and water. I have been using these with great success for the past few years along with 15+ other setups. They require no machine work to run them. My setup has been pushed to 38psi on 4bolt heads and not a sign of lifting a head. The vendor that makes these is NOT a sponser on tech so I cant say. I used to import them from Sweden from Andreas but now they are made in Texas with a few design upgrades. Here are some pics of a head that was using them. You can see how they cut into the head.
PPF Athena is made in USA now? Or are you suggesting the "texas" shop won't be selling PPF any longer and have some different version?
What head retainer setup you using? stock dia ARP studs? 1/2" CA625?
I've used them with 1/2", stock 625, and stock ARP 2000. My personal setup is 1/2".
Originally Posted by asubennett
PPF Athena is made in USA now? Or are you suggesting the "texas" shop won't be selling PPF any longer and have some different version?
These are not the Athena brand. They are made in TX with a few upgrades over the Athenas.
Originally Posted by stevieturbo
Bigger question...how many times use before the head/block is fucked and needs re-machined ?
The block side doesn't receive the cut side of the ring only the heads. I was told a few years ago by Andreas that you could reclamp in the same grooves a few times before cutting the heads. I've never personally tried it though. Any time a head comes off they are cut 0.004 to clean them up.
One very simple thing to assist reliability....keep the CR to a more sensible level.
Obviously o-rings can work too....there just seem to be many variables with them. Ho thick ring, how deep any grooves, and what type of gasket works best ?
That **** is a lot of trial and error.
Drop the CR a little, big studs, LS9 gaskets. It just works, it's simple, no trial and error etc.
People seem to forget or ignore these basics with the current high CR fascination.
I'm on board with this thought process most of the time. With that said I think I'm going to select a 10:1 combo and see what happens. I like how well the Athena style gaskets seal but I don't want to deal with shaving the head down every or every other time the head comes off. 1/2" studs seems like a good idea but you need to align hone the block after and that's more $$ too. What do the aged studs go for? $1000? I read they have a higher clamping force than the 1/2" studs. So depending on your machine shop rates it could be cheaper to go with the aged studs.
With that said the question is which is more effective on a stock casting? As we all know they like to lift in the center anyways. Maybe it is a waste of time on stock heads but I like seeing what they can take.
I've used them with 1/2", stock 625, and stock ARP 2000. My personal setup is 1/2".These are not the Athena brand. They are made in TX with a few upgrades over the Athenas.The block side doesn't receive the cut side of the ring only the heads. I was told a few years ago by Andreas that you could reclamp in the same grooves a few times before cutting the heads. I've never personally tried it though. Any time a head comes off they are cut 0.004 to clean them up.
Thanks for posting. I know you have a lot of experience doing this. Have you tried the CA625's? Why do you prefer the 1/2" studs over them? Have you tested any of your methods on stock heads?
Thanks for posting. I know you have a lot of experience doing this. Have you tried the CA625's? Why do you prefer the 1/2" studs over them? Have you tested any of your methods on stock heads?
Yes I've used the 625s also. Since switching to the cutting ring gaskets and 1/2" there hasn't been a lifted head since, even with stock heads. I don't have personal testing but some one did a pressure paper test and the 1/2" studs made a incredible difference compared to the stock fastener size. Also a line hone doesn't need to be done when converted to 1/2" studs. The 625s torque to 100ft and when 1/2" is done they are torqued to 115ft.
I did a half-fill of hardblok on my LS2 block, and pinned the main caps. Everything is working great so far, but I haven't really leaned on it yet (only 8.82 @ 155mph, 3500lbs, 23 psi). Coolant temps went down because the water isn't pulling heat out of the lower end. I added an oil cooler and oil temp sensor in the pan in fear of the oil overheating. Oil only gets to 150-180* on a long drive. Setrab smallish cooler.
Does that ring only work on iron blocks? I would think it would groove the aluminum blocks. What are the ID and OD of the ring? What happens on an aluminum block if the ring is sitting 1/2 way on the iron sleeve and half on the aluminum?
Does that ring only work on iron blocks? I would think it would groove the aluminum blocks. What are the ID and OD of the ring? What happens on an aluminum block if the ring is sitting 1/2 way on the iron sleeve and half on the aluminum?
Works on iron or aluminum. It doesn't affect the block. ID is 4.060 and OD is 4.285. Works the same if its on half on sleeve and half on block.
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