When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I can't find plug pics from the Q16 tuneup on 22 psi. The car picked up quite a bit of power up to 20 degrees than adding 1 degree to 21 power dropped slightly. In the 4800-5400 range I always run 2-3 degrees less timing than peak, I ramp back up to full timing by 6000-6200 rpm. 10:1 370 s480 15 psi 14 degree of timing 91 Octane pump gas slightly rich safe tune. His car is also on 80lb SD injectors with about 55 psi base pressure about 95% duty cycle.
During the dyno tune we were at about 14psi and 15 degrees of timing if I remember correctly. He went to 16 degrees and it didn't make anymore power. And while we have been upping the boost at the track, we didn't change the timing much. I was more afraid of adding too much.
Thanks for the info and pics.
Im going to have the heads checked to make sure they dont need to be surfaced. I've seen people have great success with the LS9 head gaskets. I am willing to try the Felpro if they will work and actually help. Also should I go ahead and try the other plugs mentioned? Get the new lifters and correct pushrods and make it run again. Im going to go ahead and bump the fuel pressure up as well. That's where I originally started at but it was literally spitting fuel from the exhaust.
The perfect scenario would to have someone local at the track to help out with the tuning. Dave, the guy I've been using has been a great help but he cant check plugs or anything so he is just using the logs.
Hi Nitro, good work to post a plug insulator. "cool" !
Now for your "E-85", YES it is made out of LOW GRADE Benzine, lowest possible mixed with the "E".
Try to find Bus Fuel an E-95 grade.
My customer in OK finds E-100 then mixes with 108 = E-90. (Pantera TT)
The report from "Taxman" : YES raise (bump) the FP back to 58 psi.
I have found that will ALLOW the Fuel Injector to CLOSE FASTER with a .813 min PW, that result is LESS Idle Fuel.
ASK your tuner about the Log of Idle PW ?
Your Plug question : Observe the SP, make your own choice.
Quick question on the head gasket topic. What would be the benefit in going from the LS9 to the Felpro 1041 ? I am going to get them ordered and want to be sure what its result is going to be.
I have never met Pantera EFI and his shop is like 5-10 mins from my house... I'm thinking I should as he seems to be a wealth of information lol. Always has good input on things
Please do this. His "old guy on the internet" style of posting seems to leave out what could be a wealth of firsthand knowledge. Then again, he may just be intentionally leaving things out until the kids get off his lawn.
Well, while cleaning up the heads to put them back on I noticed that the exhaust valves were all hammered flat on the top of the stems. So flat that the top is nearly flush with the retainers. So this would have caused the lifter preload to be backed way off and could have been causing my issues. What sucks is these were a set of Manley severe duty's. Good thing is intakes look fine. Not really sure why only the exhaust had this issue. Running stock rockers so I might look at putting a at of roller rockers on them.
A little update. Its running again and is actually running great. We are going to do some real tuning at the track the next time I get to go. Shutting down at WOT and cutting plugs open. I am looking for a means to pull it back to the pit spot now.
So here are some graphs for the hit I made on the street a couple days ago. Pulled great. No issues at all, seat of the pants wise. Near stopped rolling start, ran it to 6600 rpm and it was still pulling great, and spinning a bit. It builds boost much faster at the track than on the street. It leaves at 13.5 psi and hits 20 psi in .5 seconds after launch. But the graphs are to show how its tuned right now.
We installed new Manley severe duty exhaust valves. We determined the 5/16 pushrods and or the lifters were lettings the rockers bounce on the stems and mushrooming them due to the cylinder pressures. I now have Manley stage 5, 3/8 pushrods. Johnson 2116LSR lifters. We are also going to bump the base fuel pressure.
Another thing I want to do is install another button for added boost if needed during a pass if needed. An oh **** hes faster button. Maybe for another 3 psi which would put me right at 22-23 psi total. I don't think I want to go anymore to be safe on the rods.
since you dyno'd the vehicle, obviously you tested 7* and 5* of timing. what was the resulting egt and torque curve when timing was 7* and 5* is my only question now and forever.
Need to see a smoothing=0 dynojet pass with air/fuel curve
Not sure why we would make pulls at 5 and 7 degrees. He started with where he thought timing needed to be. Egt was not read in my logs as I am not set up with those sensors. If the dyno system read it I would have to get that info. And it wasnt really dyno tuned for performance. It was a base tune. The turbo wouldnt spool up enough either. There were issues that needed fixing.
Also the torque curve is very flat. Its nothing like a traditional turbo curve. This was at 13psi I believe. We couldn't get it to make any more boost. I think the timing on this pull was about 15.5 degrees.
I'm no expert. but as you up the boost you normally pull a little timing. You had stated earlier that you just added boost to the existing tune as you went. This can get you into detonation as well. Start low on timing, read plugs, add timing and repeat. I've been following your build and look forward to your success this time around!
My post was satire. but contains an eye raising account that I will now express to the ire of some.
How much smoothing is in the graph? You want smoothing=0 so you can see the graduations made without any computer noise reduction. Measuring power is done in a series of small steps most likely made as the limit of the angle theta measured from the center of the roller with a known radius and weight approaches zero. In other words, the computer is using calculus with powerful rate of change equations that give us a very accurate picture of what the tire does to the roller- and somebody came along and obliterated that information by scrolling up the noise filtering (smoothing).
Two things make people use smoothing=0
1. guy doesn't like the way the graph looks without smoothing
2. ...
ok one reason why. Somebody doesn't like the look of the graph so its smooth now.
Two reasons why smoothing is usually necessary:
1. improper running engine results with strange output graph
2. ...
Ok one reason why it usually is required. I am very very happy to see dynojet output graph since that is all I use and I am accustomed to reading them and interpreting results. The dynojet roller is a known weight in the computer and by measuring acceleration over time it generates a work out (in horsepower) for us. It then works backwards through engine RPM to generate a torque graph by using a simple equation. The fact you can see RPM and the line does not break means the rpm pickup (the little wire clipped to the coil pack during the run) was working properly. Even without the pickup, however, you could run a speed vs mph graph instead.
MY recommendation:
1. Test for boost leaks by providing 25~psi of pressure (if running 22psi of boost) to all intake plumbing. Any small leak is a death sentence or a power leech at best.
Then, Restructure the timing map:
at 100KPA after 2800rpm I would be 18*
by 200KPA after 2800rpm I Would be 8*
7* for 220KPA
5* for 240KPA
Using 93 octane, 9.5:1 compression, V8 modern aluminum head without any port work (OEM casting) < 120lb/hr injector, ~800 horsepower.
You need to see the non smoothed version and look for evidence the timing is too far advanced. You will retard the timing and see that EGT does not rise appreciably for confirmation. If you pull the timing to 7* and the engine loses 15-25 horsepower is was perfect, EGT might rise 80*F to 120*F and torque will smooth out dramatically, and the coolant will still remain well controlled (it will not get hot if it didn't get hot before). If you lose 100 horsepower then your real problem is temperature related and you need either less boost or a colder combustion event (use methanol or water).
Edit:
I have another question. took the time to read some of the first post and I think it says C16? No way you are doing that with 15* of timing on C16. You must be running pump fuel at some point. So can you please describe the times when you have used C16, and when have you used pump fuel. When did you switch. I hope you did not tune on C16 then switch to pump?
Its been on C14 since it was built with the turbo setup and has not changed. So all tuning, the dyno and logs are all C14.
For timing, the base tune which was used for the dyno sheet above, the final timing was about 15.5 at the 13psi, might have been closet to 14psi. He bumped it to 16 and it did not increase any power so we dropped it back down. He did state that this engine and setup likes more timing than hes used to. And this was done at Henderson performance in New Braunfels. He is very well known and respected in Texas for tuning.
During our tuning on the street I found that when we got it to build more boost, it would stumble a bit up top around 6k rpm and start top lay over. I got it to stop by adding very little timing to it and adjusting the fuel a little. By a little I mean about .25 to .5 degrees and maybe .5 in AFR. Beings I was and am still learning this stuff I made very small adjustments so that I didn't mess anything up.
Also on the track it loads up the turbo much better than the dyno did. It builds boost much faster and down lower in the rpm range. So there were tweaks due to this as well.
I know there are a couple of small pin holes in the cold piping because they would spit some water during the dyno tuning. I bought a TIG so that I can repair the welds now, but I am learning how to TIG before I use it on my piping.
I will look at pulling some timing for this weekends testing and see how it works out. We will be checking plugs. I am trying to find a way to tow it back to the pits after each run.
Rods are gen 4 6.0 and pistons are Mahle replacements. So nothing special.
Talon you really shouldn't even bother chiming in if your seriously suggesting 5* @240kpa
I thought he is using 93 octane. What the hell is C14?
google says:
VP’s C14 is a leaded (not for use with catalytic converters!) racing gas with a Motor Octane of 114. Jason said, “We recommended this one for naturally aspirated engines operating at over 8000 RPMs with compression ratios of 14:1 and higher. It’s the spec fuel for NHRA Comp Eliminator, NMRA and NMCA”.
This is what you are using? and getting white specks with 15* of timing looks like something is melting?
There are really only two things you can do if you keep using the same (great) fuel.
1. measure IAT, compressor wheel speed, and EGT look for issues related to temperature/wheel speed
2. If we rule out temp and we rule out fuel octane, there isn't much less other than timing, or improper port work (some mods to the combustion chamber can upset the flame propagation or whatever) to cause a problem.
Still going to recommend a timing reduction until I see that data which would only confirm it. Anything over 2x output (double or more) should have an $60 EGT gauge on it to say the least.
Also it might be too much fuel. Using C16 I would keep this thing around 12:1 around 15-18psi of boost. I see it touching 10:1 so that could be something. I don't ever run C16 that rich so I am not sure what the side effects are (of a similar leaded racing fuel @ 10:1). With pump fuel many say 10:1 is too rich but I find 10.5:1 is often acceptable for "pre-dyno street tuning" which some cars drive on for a loooong time.
07-02-2017, 06:41 PM
