Suggestions for SC for 417ci LS3
LS6427: Thanks for your "2 pennies" which might really be worth more than $2K.
I didn't know the Centrifugal were so much louder. While the car is already quite loud with its dual 3" exhaust, no cats and Pyres race mufflers (basically glass packs) I don't want more engine noise.
And thanks for the feedback (or at least opinion) on the Whipples. I'm currently just aiming for 750HP; otherwise I will need to switch to a 4L80E and possibly lower the CR.
Please keep the ideas coming; this is starting to give me enough info to see what the Gen 2 people are doing; at least those with LS swaps.
I didn't know the Centrifugal were so much louder. While the car is already quite loud with its dual 3" exhaust, no cats and Pyres race mufflers (basically glass packs) I don't want more engine noise.
And thanks for the feedback (or at least opinion) on the Whipples. I'm currently just aiming for 750HP; otherwise I will need to switch to a 4L80E and possibly lower the CR.
Please keep the ideas coming; this is starting to give me enough info to see what the Gen 2 people are doing; at least those with LS swaps.
The install is clean and easy. No piping mess of a turbo kit. No worrying about moving the radiator and/or condenser or having over-heating issues. Pop the hood, remove the intake and install the SC'er. Then install the heat exchanger. Any good shop can do it in 1-2 days.
You'll make 750 RWHP easy. Maybe only spend $4,000 total.
.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
If you dont want lag, which is understandable, the wide range of centri options really do make them a good choice.
Even though they may not make much boost at low rpm...that doesnt mean they arent still moving air into the engine to assist performance although it will not be PD style blowers down low.
Even though they may not make much boost at low rpm...that doesnt mean they arent still moving air into the engine to assist performance although it will not be PD style blowers down low.
Thread Starter
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Will try to answer each question you had to me in a diff paragraph:
Do you have links to people putting on new twin screw style blowers without head exchangers and living a long time on 93 only? I haven't seen any as everyone always chooses to run either meth or E85 or has a huge heat exchanger. Your specific demands rule out just about everyone whose done this before.
The total hp is not an issue for me as we just did 19 psi on a 78/75 5.3 93 octane only setup, but with proper FMIC keeping the IAT's in check. I think at that CR and boost level you'll be generating a ton of heat and combustion pressure.
Roots/twin screw make full boost practically off idle and taper off at high rpm typically. Centrifugal makes boost faster than a turbo, but slower than a roots/twin screw and increases boost all the way to redline. This will help with traction as well as being easier on internal parts. With a high CR and 93 pump only, linear increase in boost will make tuning easier as well as prevent immediate spikes in combustion pressure. A properly spec'd turbo setup will minimize lag so I wouldn't rule out turbo lag, but yes in general a blower setup can make some boost quicker (IME).
For a cam, depending on your turbo/blower choice and RPM range, that would dictate what I would choose for overlap. I have a Futral F13 that is like 2* of overlap and believe it works very well with my D1SC. You can be more aggressive on overlap IMO with a blower vs. a turbo since there is no hotside and turbine A/R and backpressure to deal with assuming a sufficiently large header/exhaust system.
Again, others may feel differently, but this is my opinion.
Do you have links to people putting on new twin screw style blowers without head exchangers and living a long time on 93 only? I haven't seen any as everyone always chooses to run either meth or E85 or has a huge heat exchanger. Your specific demands rule out just about everyone whose done this before.
The total hp is not an issue for me as we just did 19 psi on a 78/75 5.3 93 octane only setup, but with proper FMIC keeping the IAT's in check. I think at that CR and boost level you'll be generating a ton of heat and combustion pressure.
Roots/twin screw make full boost practically off idle and taper off at high rpm typically. Centrifugal makes boost faster than a turbo, but slower than a roots/twin screw and increases boost all the way to redline. This will help with traction as well as being easier on internal parts. With a high CR and 93 pump only, linear increase in boost will make tuning easier as well as prevent immediate spikes in combustion pressure. A properly spec'd turbo setup will minimize lag so I wouldn't rule out turbo lag, but yes in general a blower setup can make some boost quicker (IME).
For a cam, depending on your turbo/blower choice and RPM range, that would dictate what I would choose for overlap. I have a Futral F13 that is like 2* of overlap and believe it works very well with my D1SC. You can be more aggressive on overlap IMO with a blower vs. a turbo since there is no hotside and turbine A/R and backpressure to deal with assuming a sufficiently large header/exhaust system.
Again, others may feel differently, but this is my opinion.
And now my comments to yours, in order.
No, I assumed that something like the Manguson kit had enough of a heat exchanger. And that the customers were running 93. Are you saying that E85 is then highly recommended or even necessary? That would be a non-issue for me as I have a brand new E85 compatible tank and all teflon AN-8 or hard lines for the entire fuel system.
How would you add an external heat exchanger to e.g. the Manguson setup? (Got links?)
Your comment that a Centrifugal makes boost more gradually and that helps with traction got my attention. This car always has traction problems, even with different drag radials. The suspension is setup more for road course racing. I just re-located the battery to the trunk and have adjustable drag shocks for the front.
2* of overlap sounds good to me for a blower cam. Checking the ProCharger site, it appears the D1SC is available with quieter helical gears.
So do I need an air-to-air cooler with it and/or have to run E85?
Love your opinions! Thanks
Thread Starter
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Stock LS3 compression is 10.7:1 not 11.1:1
If it were me I’d do a simple D1SC kit with a flex fuel setup and call it a day. It will easily make 750whp, run cooler, and be more efficient.
I’ve been pushing the LS3 for a long time and swapping to a flex fuel setup was one of the best mods I’ve ever done.
If it were me I’d do a simple D1SC kit with a flex fuel setup and call it a day. It will easily make 750whp, run cooler, and be more efficient.
I’ve been pushing the LS3 for a long time and swapping to a flex fuel setup was one of the best mods I’ve ever done.
On topic of E85, I'm not keen having to get gas so often, although changing from a 19* overlap cam to 2* might increase my cruising MPG even with the SC drag.
TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2016
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From: PDX-OR-USA
Magnusen is the factory research partner with Eaton.. FWIW..
Whipples make less power, because they are designed to boost heat less,,
their quality os very good and for the guy who just want more punch with low risk.. and isn't chasing the magic kilo of horsepower,, they are great..
just a couple thoughts..
Whipples make less power, because they are designed to boost heat less,,
their quality os very good and for the guy who just want more punch with low risk.. and isn't chasing the magic kilo of horsepower,, they are great..
just a couple thoughts..
If you go E85 you likely don't need a heat exchanger other than what comes with 1 of the twin screw kits and can hit your goal. That said, you're traction will be nonexistent if you don't have good traction now lol.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
If 750 RWHP is all you want, get a TVS2300.....it fits under the factory hood and cowl. Is very quiet until you nail it, then you get the whine sound of the roots/screw type SC'er.
The install is clean and easy. No piping mess of a turbo kit. No worrying about moving the radiator and/or condenser or having over-heating issues. Pop the hood, remove the intake and install the SC'er. Then install the heat exchanger. Any good shop can do it in 1-2 days.
You'll make 750 RWHP easy. Maybe only spend $4,000 total.
.
The install is clean and easy. No piping mess of a turbo kit. No worrying about moving the radiator and/or condenser or having over-heating issues. Pop the hood, remove the intake and install the SC'er. Then install the heat exchanger. Any good shop can do it in 1-2 days.
You'll make 750 RWHP easy. Maybe only spend $4,000 total.
.
I thought the Manguson was a TVS2300 and the kit is about $7500.
But you say "install the SC'er. Then install the heat exchanger", so you seem to be suggesting bare-bones components and a heat exchanger which is separate from the SC and not integrated into it.
Perhaps you could provide links to the parts or someone's setup.
The primary goal is to build it myself; my garage is very well equipped, even with a hoist. Still a kit would be nice as I have to keep 4 cars track ready and spend many weekends road course racing, as does my wife in her car.
Oh, and a 24 Hours of Lemons car and Lemons races.
Again WOW to everyone sharing their knowledge and experience here. I'm learning a lot and now better understand the benefits of the Centrifugal SC.
Thanks so much!
Like I said earlier it’s a street car. I drive it often and don’t fill up as often people make it seem with e85. We have it everywhere here in Michigan so there is no reason not to run it. Runs cooler, better octane, knock resistance, and hp benefits.
The D1SC is a great blower. Loved mine all the way up until I switched to the D1X and now I’m in love with it.
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I had a C5 Z06 with a centrifugal blower and it was a very fun and driveable car.
Years later and I now have a turbo setup and would NEVER look back to running any other type of boost setup. Boost by gear is the best thing ever...... Being able to turn up/down the power from the driver seat is worth the effort.
If you want it quiet... run a turbo thru closed exhaust and 2 mufflers.... then an e-cutout to party. I don't like crazy blower whine either.
My LS9 turbo runs a baby cam with barely noticeable cam lope..... but makes 1200rwhp+ turned up. 14psi puts down 1060rwhp.... I would try to see if the Huron Speed turbo kit would work on your car. You wouldn't be disappointed... your 4L65E may not like it though
Years later and I now have a turbo setup and would NEVER look back to running any other type of boost setup. Boost by gear is the best thing ever...... Being able to turn up/down the power from the driver seat is worth the effort.
If you want it quiet... run a turbo thru closed exhaust and 2 mufflers.... then an e-cutout to party. I don't like crazy blower whine either.
My LS9 turbo runs a baby cam with barely noticeable cam lope..... but makes 1200rwhp+ turned up. 14psi puts down 1060rwhp.... I would try to see if the Huron Speed turbo kit would work on your car. You wouldn't be disappointed... your 4L65E may not like it though
TECH Fanatic
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Why isn't boost per gear an option with a blower?
The procharger does seem loud at idle especially with the hood up, but driving around it's not an issue at all.
You guys dont think a D1 is a little small on a 417 cubic inch motor?
You guys dont think a D1 is a little small on a 417 cubic inch motor?
You do have the option to wastegate the blower setup....This would do 2 things:
1) increase the area under the curve since you're spinning the blower faster for a given boost.
2) allow multiple boost levels.
1) increase the area under the curve since you're spinning the blower faster for a given boost.
2) allow multiple boost levels.
TECH Fanatic
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i would do a whipple or a ysi. The ysi would prob be better because the boost starts low and ramps up. The whipple hits like a hammer. Most of the people hating on the whipple don’t own one. I love mine. It’s a very efficient blower (99%) and creates a lot less heat. I have never seen intake temps over 120-125 this is with 13-14lbs boost . Won’t fit under the hood of a c6 though. A ysi is very powerful and will fit under the hood of a c6.they create a lot more heat, but you could add a meth kit pretty easy. Unless your gonna run E85, any thing you choose is gonna require an intercooler.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
On a 416 no it wouldnt.
Hell...even when I fist started on a stock 346 back in 2004 or so I bolted a YSi to it. And it was bloody superb at only 10psi boost.
And that same blower lasted me ( albeit with a couple of repairs ) until 2014 when I went turbo.
But with straight cut gears, if he wants a quieter option then no the YSi would be a bad choice for that alone. But for meeting his power goals now...and perhaps in the future it would work great. And even if he did want to change will always be a good re-seller.
Hell...even when I fist started on a stock 346 back in 2004 or so I bolted a YSi to it. And it was bloody superb at only 10psi boost.
And that same blower lasted me ( albeit with a couple of repairs ) until 2014 when I went turbo.
But with straight cut gears, if he wants a quieter option then no the YSi would be a bad choice for that alone. But for meeting his power goals now...and perhaps in the future it would work great. And even if he did want to change will always be a good re-seller.
I disagree. It’s not a matter of it making the power of not but the powerband wouldn’t be that great. Extra cubes will give it a little bump but YSi’s shine when they are spun hard and for that the op wants spinning a YSi hard would far exceed his target goal. A Ti trim or D1 at 750 would have a much better powerband from low end to top end for what the op is looking for.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Again...having used a YSi on a stock 346 many years ago...in no way was it lacking compared to running that same engine n/a
I did only leave it like that for about 3-4 weeks before upgrading...but it was still great lol
I did only leave it like that for about 3-4 weeks before upgrading...but it was still great lol
Thread Starter
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
However I don't think even my best-built 4L65E will handle more than 750HP.
Also, switching the cam from 19* overlap to 2* overlap will probably drop the NA power to around 550HP and the SC will therefore have to add 200.
And I suspect I will eventually move this engine to the Vette and get a SC LS7 for this car.