Large Twin Turbos for Road Racing???
08-11-2018, 11:58 AM
#21
I am suspicious of the theory that the car will be easier to drive with turbos that come on at higher RPM. Imagine coming out of a corner at 4000 RPM...
If you have turbos that come on at 3000 RPM, then power builds in proportion to throttle pedal position. Turbo lag is barely perceptible because you're well with the turbo's operating range. If you're near the limit of traction, you'll need to get used to not pushing the pedal down too far, but that sounds easy enough.
If you have turbos that come on at 5000 RPM, then power builds as a combination of pedal position and RPM. If you're near the limit of traction you'll need to ease off as RPM builds. That sounds harder to get right. If you hold constant throttle, boost builds in proportion to RPM because the turbo is just getting into its best operating range. That's the kind of thing that gave "turbo lag" such a bad name.
If you have turbos that come on at 3000 RPM, then power builds in proportion to throttle pedal position. Turbo lag is barely perceptible because you're well with the turbo's operating range. If you're near the limit of traction, you'll need to get used to not pushing the pedal down too far, but that sounds easy enough.
If you have turbos that come on at 5000 RPM, then power builds as a combination of pedal position and RPM. If you're near the limit of traction you'll need to ease off as RPM builds. That sounds harder to get right. If you hold constant throttle, boost builds in proportion to RPM because the turbo is just getting into its best operating range. That's the kind of thing that gave "turbo lag" such a bad name.
08-11-2018, 09:52 PM
#22
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Nice car and setup, I'm definitely in to see how this turns out for you. I'm happy if my heap makes it down the track for a 1-2-3 pull, doing what you are doing is on a much higher level.
Have any pics you could share of how you keep assemblies (mainly engine & trans) cool in its current configuration? I'd like to steal some ideas for my car. Also any more pics of current turbo pipe routing? What scavenge pump are using and what's your scavenge "sump" like? Just thinking that it's obviously working very well to handle the constant thrashing and hot oil temps.
Sorry for only asking questions and not giving any advice haha.
Thanks,
Jarrod
Have any pics you could share of how you keep assemblies (mainly engine & trans) cool in its current configuration? I'd like to steal some ideas for my car. Also any more pics of current turbo pipe routing? What scavenge pump are using and what's your scavenge "sump" like? Just thinking that it's obviously working very well to handle the constant thrashing and hot oil temps.
Sorry for only asking questions and not giving any advice haha.
Thanks,
Jarrod
I have 2 coolers to add, one has a fan attached. I'll mount them remotely and 1 can do engine oil, the other trans oil. That will help. May add an electric water pump at some point and shroud the headers more to reduce under hood temps. I'm running full race headers with merge collectors on the remote turbo setup - probably not ideal for spool, but there's certainly no flow restriction until the turbos. I'm sure I'd spool a few hundred rpm sooner if I ran shorties or manifolds, but the top end would die off.
I'll through some pics up as I can. Scavenge pump is a Turbowerx Exa and it works great. Much better capacity and reliability than the old STS one. These pics are old when car was getting roll cage etc. Will see if I have any more recent under the car/hood etc
08-11-2018, 10:26 PM
#24
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Stevieturbo - good info thanks. Will check those units out. Really like the Bullseye - but dang their prices have tripled since I got mine. Good info on block too. Would love Dart MID sleeves as a few blocks have cracked leaned on hard for too long around here in road racing.
NSFW - yes progressive control is key. That's why low boost and a lot of NA power is important for road racing. Highly strung turbo motors are very hard to control when they hit.
NSFW - yes progressive control is key. That's why low boost and a lot of NA power is important for road racing. Highly strung turbo motors are very hard to control when they hit.
08-12-2018, 05:00 AM
#25
9 Second Club
Nothing needs to be highly strung here, you have moderate goals. Boost control is easy and can give you lots of control...you just have to make it happen. I see no need for MID sleeves at all...and TBH I'd have more concerns about an aftermarket sleeved block than a factory block. Factory workmanship is always good...aftermarket is often hit or miss.
Even just in the last couple of months a friends 4 cyl car had major HG failure due to ******** not sleeving his block correctly and the liners dropped. No doubt there are many places who can do the job and do it well....but there are also many who cannot. It's no small item to get wrong !
For cooling, although it would add a little complication...you could consider a rear mounted chargecooler, which would then only require a smaller water core up front, which would in turn allow more airflow back into the main engine radiator.
It would also free up some room up front for oil/trans coolers if you needed.
Although as trans oil would need pumped anyway....somewhere under or towards the rear of the car might be as handy that routing to the front.
You also still have wheel speed sensors on the rear shafts...and I presume ABS up front which you may or may not still be using ? An ecu that offers you good traction control could be a sensible addition.
Even just in the last couple of months a friends 4 cyl car had major HG failure due to ******** not sleeving his block correctly and the liners dropped. No doubt there are many places who can do the job and do it well....but there are also many who cannot. It's no small item to get wrong !
For cooling, although it would add a little complication...you could consider a rear mounted chargecooler, which would then only require a smaller water core up front, which would in turn allow more airflow back into the main engine radiator.
It would also free up some room up front for oil/trans coolers if you needed.
Although as trans oil would need pumped anyway....somewhere under or towards the rear of the car might be as handy that routing to the front.
You also still have wheel speed sensors on the rear shafts...and I presume ABS up front which you may or may not still be using ? An ecu that offers you good traction control could be a sensible addition.
08-12-2018, 01:03 PM
#26
Whereas, if they "hit" somewhere in the middle if your RPM range, then you have to anticipate the effects of RPM and time (in addition to throttle pedal position) because boost depends on all three factors.
08-12-2018, 07:13 PM
#27
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
NSFW - got that, thanks. I think that is extremely important when the jump is big.
However, I have heard (and am yet to prove for sure) that some of the higher tech larger BB billet turbos are so efficient that while they love to spool up at 30psi at high rpm, will actually produce 2-3lb quite low in the rpm and so limiting them to around 5-7 on the top end would be quite linear.... in theory.
Against theory is actual real world experience that tells me those little batmowheel units I now have deliver power very controllably, albeit with more backpressure which hurts throttle response. Edit: throttle response is about as good as a normal stock LS3 which is to say a bit lazy but not bad. I like crisper than that, and I could crispen response up via tight lobe centres on the cam - say 111 on the intake installed at 108. I don't agree with a lot of the turbo cam theories most do, while they can work they tend to make engines lazy off boost. A good NA motor will typically work real good on boost too. I'm in good company on that, though with a remote mount would not want too much overlap in conjunction with a much bigger exhaust duration that LS motors like... it'd work but spool would slow down and 20mpg cruising would fly away lol
However, I have heard (and am yet to prove for sure) that some of the higher tech larger BB billet turbos are so efficient that while they love to spool up at 30psi at high rpm, will actually produce 2-3lb quite low in the rpm and so limiting them to around 5-7 on the top end would be quite linear.... in theory.
Against theory is actual real world experience that tells me those little batmowheel units I now have deliver power very controllably, albeit with more backpressure which hurts throttle response. Edit: throttle response is about as good as a normal stock LS3 which is to say a bit lazy but not bad. I like crisper than that, and I could crispen response up via tight lobe centres on the cam - say 111 on the intake installed at 108. I don't agree with a lot of the turbo cam theories most do, while they can work they tend to make engines lazy off boost. A good NA motor will typically work real good on boost too. I'm in good company on that, though with a remote mount would not want too much overlap in conjunction with a much bigger exhaust duration that LS motors like... it'd work but spool would slow down and 20mpg cruising would fly away lol
08-12-2018, 07:47 PM
#28
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Stevieturbo, agreed 700-800rwhp is not strained on a good forged LS engine.... except when sustained. I think that is where you see the block move around and their design flaws surface. There's a lot of wrecked ones around and it's the heat or a little bit of detonation that can creep in over time with a bad gas/faulty knock sensor or whatever.
I hear you on the MID sleeves - I'll do my homework before pulling the trigger on that.
Like you say, a good fresh forged LS9 block would save a lot of money and provide some fun until I can afford to build that MID tall deck 440 I'd love one day.
Heard bad things about RHS, ERL are out of business, so Dart blocks seem to the premium block when the money is there to do it.
Can anyone here vouch for the quality of Borowskirace Engines work? They do MID sleeves on Dart blocks
Till then, the LS9 could stay at 6.2L and be happy around 10-12psi with good heads and cam, all I have to do is keep her cool. Thanks for the ideas Stevie. Water air coolers tend to heat soak on the longer events like I do, though are perfect for the standing mile etc. I have room to run more coolers having no back seat and I can duct air into the rear compartment no problem. I've also got some high tech paint (cost me $180 per liter) that drops radiator temps 15F so will add that shortly. The paint reflects heat plus has dimples creating 50% more surface area while also radiating heat away. A few road racers here using it to good effect.
Yes, still use ABS, air con, still have a stereo and traction control - but the GM traction control sucks so I never turn it on unless limping home in pouring rain. 315 Nitto NT01's will grip in every gear on a dry road once warm if I push the pedal and not stomp it. The'll hook top of 3rd gear in the wet as long as there is no standing water... any of that and it's time for a change in underwear
I hear you on the MID sleeves - I'll do my homework before pulling the trigger on that.
Like you say, a good fresh forged LS9 block would save a lot of money and provide some fun until I can afford to build that MID tall deck 440 I'd love one day.
Heard bad things about RHS, ERL are out of business, so Dart blocks seem to the premium block when the money is there to do it.
Can anyone here vouch for the quality of Borowskirace Engines work? They do MID sleeves on Dart blocks
Till then, the LS9 could stay at 6.2L and be happy around 10-12psi with good heads and cam, all I have to do is keep her cool. Thanks for the ideas Stevie. Water air coolers tend to heat soak on the longer events like I do, though are perfect for the standing mile etc. I have room to run more coolers having no back seat and I can duct air into the rear compartment no problem. I've also got some high tech paint (cost me $180 per liter) that drops radiator temps 15F so will add that shortly. The paint reflects heat plus has dimples creating 50% more surface area while also radiating heat away. A few road racers here using it to good effect.
Yes, still use ABS, air con, still have a stereo and traction control - but the GM traction control sucks so I never turn it on unless limping home in pouring rain. 315 Nitto NT01's will grip in every gear on a dry road once warm if I push the pedal and not stomp it. The'll hook top of 3rd gear in the wet as long as there is no standing water... any of that and it's time for a change in underwear
08-12-2018, 08:13 PM
#29
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Opening up the grille allowed more air in as did a cowl over the front radiator directing air down from the top rather than going straight over it into the engine bay. Side windows are covered in tape so I could wash the car (there are 2 Naca ducts for cooling each side in the plexiglass rear side windows). Getting there... just need forged motor and a diff rebuild now lol
08-13-2018, 06:59 AM
#30
9 Second Club
water based chargecooler will only "heat soak" as you say...if donw badly...much the same as an air to air will only work poorly...if done badly.
So dont do it badly.
And throttle response is poor...because you've the turbos miles away from the engine ! lol
And I didnt say factory traction control....I said a good ecu that could give you good engine, boost and traction etc would be a good investment
And people wrecking blocks are simply down to bad build or tuning...no fault of the block itself especially at only 800hp. It isnt endurance racing and as you've already said you are never WOT full power for minutes at a time etc.
So dont do it badly.
And throttle response is poor...because you've the turbos miles away from the engine ! lol
And I didnt say factory traction control....I said a good ecu that could give you good engine, boost and traction etc would be a good investment
And people wrecking blocks are simply down to bad build or tuning...no fault of the block itself especially at only 800hp. It isnt endurance racing and as you've already said you are never WOT full power for minutes at a time etc.
08-13-2018, 04:16 PM
#31
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Ok, good to know Stevie, will do some research on the chargecooler option, my understanding was based on 10 years ago and I'm sure they've improved since then. My intake temps are way low as the front mount works a charm. If it didn't block the radiator it'd be perfect lol. The new cowl has helped coolant temps significantly, but I need a track day to see if that's enough or whether the front mount has to go. Nothing like hot laps to see if there is a cooling issue.
Throttle response is better than a stock NA Ls1, I just know what a sharp crisp tight LCA V8 can be like and think I can improve it lol I accept that boost lag will always be a factor with remotes - in 1st gear anyway, that's why a stroker would help.
I'm getting the idea you don't rate the factory GM ECU? I'm using the old LS1 ecu as it was in the car and we modified the LS3 back to it. My tuner can do most anything with it, so it's been cheap and handy. Are you saying some of the aftermarkets ones give better control?
I can't justify a Motec right now, but could look at some of the othe stand alones.... My concern is I still need factory ecu for lights, ABS, dash etc or I'm up for a complete rewire and custom dash etc.
My boost control is via a Turbosmart eBoost2 - they sounded perfect but to be honest I'm not impressed with it. It won't do rpm boost by gear without buying more bits for it and it doesn't do what it is there for well. Wastegate springs are only a guide and we can't keep a steady boost - it'll spike almost 4psi right in the fat part of the TQ (great unless you are pushing the edge of detonation) then drop off back to where you set it. I'd rather have boost creep than spike - at least creep is on the top end where it should be safer.
What would you recommend?
BTW - love your sig. I'd love to run 200mph in the standing mile and a high 9 sec pass like you in my ol thing one day too. That'd take a few more ponies than I can make right now lol. Sorting heat and reliability for track days and week long events is 1st step before turning it up. Car has finished every event since I went to manual, but finishing has often meant limp home to get temps down or clutch gone, fun when you get a red light... clutch was a cable issue, fixed.
Throttle response is better than a stock NA Ls1, I just know what a sharp crisp tight LCA V8 can be like and think I can improve it lol I accept that boost lag will always be a factor with remotes - in 1st gear anyway, that's why a stroker would help.
I'm getting the idea you don't rate the factory GM ECU? I'm using the old LS1 ecu as it was in the car and we modified the LS3 back to it. My tuner can do most anything with it, so it's been cheap and handy. Are you saying some of the aftermarkets ones give better control?
I can't justify a Motec right now, but could look at some of the othe stand alones.... My concern is I still need factory ecu for lights, ABS, dash etc or I'm up for a complete rewire and custom dash etc.
My boost control is via a Turbosmart eBoost2 - they sounded perfect but to be honest I'm not impressed with it. It won't do rpm boost by gear without buying more bits for it and it doesn't do what it is there for well. Wastegate springs are only a guide and we can't keep a steady boost - it'll spike almost 4psi right in the fat part of the TQ (great unless you are pushing the edge of detonation) then drop off back to where you set it. I'd rather have boost creep than spike - at least creep is on the top end where it should be safer.
What would you recommend?
BTW - love your sig. I'd love to run 200mph in the standing mile and a high 9 sec pass like you in my ol thing one day too. That'd take a few more ponies than I can make right now lol. Sorting heat and reliability for track days and week long events is 1st step before turning it up. Car has finished every event since I went to manual, but finishing has often meant limp home to get temps down or clutch gone, fun when you get a red light... clutch was a cable issue, fixed.
08-13-2018, 04:55 PM
#32
9 Second Club
EBoost2 can do boost by rpm....you just need to give it an rpm signal. When configured correctly it is a very good controller
It can do boost by gear...sort of, messy...bullshit....no it cant lol. It can do up to 4 boost levels, operated via microswitches if you can figure out how to attach these to your gearstick to give it signals....for whichever 4 gears you choose. Load of ***** really. So in theory it can sort of do boost by gear, in reality they're lying because it's so ******* awkward to achieve.
This would be better https://sirhclabs.com/
And of course a better ecu will give you more control as I already said and suggested including boost by gear, rpm, throttle, whatever really.. In the case where you need to retain the OEM ecu...no big deal, just piggyback install the new ecu so it's still there to do it's normal functions, it will just no longer control the engine.
Plus ease of tuning, datalogging etc etc...the latter very good to have even more so for racing.
I'm certainly not a fan of Motec, far too expensive for what they offer, but they are good. Well at least the old gold box stuff was....M1 probably is too, but it's mode of operation seems like a ******* nightmare. I simply wouldnt touch it.
I would recommend Syvecs, but it isnt cheap either and unless you have somewhere local to you for support...that would be difficult. But IMO it is the best ecu on the market ( or Life Racing who make them but are more aimed at motorsport, Syvecs has taken up the road car side....******* fast road cars in many cases, probably far faster than the motorsport lol )
At the budget end, some of Link's stuff isnt too bad although I really dislike their software though. But with the right unit it would be a versatile unit and cover all boost and engine control/safety needs...almost.
Or again Aussie based and looks to be very good, Emtron. I've never used it, but it does seem like a very capable system
And if you're pushing the edge of detonation as you call it....again, that's bad tuning. If harm comes, nobodys fault but whoever tuned it. Especially for an application that sees sustained hard use.
As for cooling...everything on that bonnet is contrary to helping airflow out of the bonnet !. You've vents to allow air in...and nothing at a suitable location to allow air out. Your raised section opens to a high pressure area, so really wont allow a huge amount of air out.
Ideally you'd want some vents to allow air out around 1/3 distance from the front of the bonnet as that would be a low pressure area.
Look at most OEM cars that have such vents and you'll notice they are all pretty far forwards...because that is where they work best. Few are much beyond half way.
It can do boost by gear...sort of, messy...bullshit....no it cant lol. It can do up to 4 boost levels, operated via microswitches if you can figure out how to attach these to your gearstick to give it signals....for whichever 4 gears you choose. Load of ***** really. So in theory it can sort of do boost by gear, in reality they're lying because it's so ******* awkward to achieve.
This would be better https://sirhclabs.com/
And of course a better ecu will give you more control as I already said and suggested including boost by gear, rpm, throttle, whatever really.. In the case where you need to retain the OEM ecu...no big deal, just piggyback install the new ecu so it's still there to do it's normal functions, it will just no longer control the engine.
Plus ease of tuning, datalogging etc etc...the latter very good to have even more so for racing.
I'm certainly not a fan of Motec, far too expensive for what they offer, but they are good. Well at least the old gold box stuff was....M1 probably is too, but it's mode of operation seems like a ******* nightmare. I simply wouldnt touch it.
I would recommend Syvecs, but it isnt cheap either and unless you have somewhere local to you for support...that would be difficult. But IMO it is the best ecu on the market ( or Life Racing who make them but are more aimed at motorsport, Syvecs has taken up the road car side....******* fast road cars in many cases, probably far faster than the motorsport lol )
At the budget end, some of Link's stuff isnt too bad although I really dislike their software though. But with the right unit it would be a versatile unit and cover all boost and engine control/safety needs...almost.
Or again Aussie based and looks to be very good, Emtron. I've never used it, but it does seem like a very capable system
And if you're pushing the edge of detonation as you call it....again, that's bad tuning. If harm comes, nobodys fault but whoever tuned it. Especially for an application that sees sustained hard use.
As for cooling...everything on that bonnet is contrary to helping airflow out of the bonnet !. You've vents to allow air in...and nothing at a suitable location to allow air out. Your raised section opens to a high pressure area, so really wont allow a huge amount of air out.
Ideally you'd want some vents to allow air out around 1/3 distance from the front of the bonnet as that would be a low pressure area.
Look at most OEM cars that have such vents and you'll notice they are all pretty far forwards...because that is where they work best. Few are much beyond half way.
08-13-2018, 10:40 PM
#33
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Thanks Stevieturbo. That https://sirhclabs.com/ unit looks awesome. Sent link to my tuner to see if he knows about it or is interested. Syves looks cool too, sent tuner that link too. Links is NZ based so is local to me, though my tuner just got back from UK where he teamed up with a guy who is making dynos using the same system he created 10 years ago, so he may be familiar with that brand.
Robin from Torque Performance is conservative on his tunes and has done a stellar job to date over many years and several vehicles. His dyno (that he designed and built) reads lower than others but is consistent. He had my old AMG C63 507 coupe at 485rwhp on his dyno - which would have been 500 on any of the others around town (race headers, cat delete and tune). He pulls enough timing out for the boost spikes, but I have experienced a back fire (pop) when intake temps were cold and water/meth started injecting.... I need a temp switch to turn meth off until IAT comes up because water/meth drops power if injected when intake is cold (aside from possible ring damaging pops). It won't misbehave on the dyno though, so its hard to tune out. I have dropped all water and now only inject meth so that should help, but again - I think it is only any help once air intake temps are hot. I use aquamist 4 controller/jets on a US pump/tank. It kicks in around 6psi, but maybe I should turn that up to 10.
Funny what you say re the bonnet. I have 2 louvred vents to put on that bonnet just where you suggest. Just have not got around to it yet :-) Planned to put them right up against the hood bulge (left and right) as close to the front vents as still looks aesthetically pleasing. That will allow hot air to escape. I may add small air dams under the front vents to direct cold air down otherwise it will just pass right out again and do no good.
Just watched your standing 1km run - wow. That was hauling. Very cool! What kind of power to run that speed?
Robin from Torque Performance is conservative on his tunes and has done a stellar job to date over many years and several vehicles. His dyno (that he designed and built) reads lower than others but is consistent. He had my old AMG C63 507 coupe at 485rwhp on his dyno - which would have been 500 on any of the others around town (race headers, cat delete and tune). He pulls enough timing out for the boost spikes, but I have experienced a back fire (pop) when intake temps were cold and water/meth started injecting.... I need a temp switch to turn meth off until IAT comes up because water/meth drops power if injected when intake is cold (aside from possible ring damaging pops). It won't misbehave on the dyno though, so its hard to tune out. I have dropped all water and now only inject meth so that should help, but again - I think it is only any help once air intake temps are hot. I use aquamist 4 controller/jets on a US pump/tank. It kicks in around 6psi, but maybe I should turn that up to 10.
Funny what you say re the bonnet. I have 2 louvred vents to put on that bonnet just where you suggest. Just have not got around to it yet :-) Planned to put them right up against the hood bulge (left and right) as close to the front vents as still looks aesthetically pleasing. That will allow hot air to escape. I may add small air dams under the front vents to direct cold air down otherwise it will just pass right out again and do no good.
Just watched your standing 1km run - wow. That was hauling. Very cool! What kind of power to run that speed?
Last edited by Bazman; 08-13-2018 at 10:47 PM.
08-14-2018, 01:26 AM
#34
water based chargecooler will only "heat soak" as you say...if donw badly...much the same as an air to air will only work poorly...if done badly.
So dont do it badly.
And throttle response is poor...because you've the turbos miles away from the engine ! lol
And I didnt say factory traction control....I said a good ecu that could give you good engine, boost and traction etc would be a good investment
And people wrecking blocks are simply down to bad build or tuning...no fault of the block itself especially at only 800hp. It isnt endurance racing and as you've already said you are never WOT full power for minutes at a time etc.
So dont do it badly.
And throttle response is poor...because you've the turbos miles away from the engine ! lol
And I didnt say factory traction control....I said a good ecu that could give you good engine, boost and traction etc would be a good investment
And people wrecking blocks are simply down to bad build or tuning...no fault of the block itself especially at only 800hp. It isnt endurance racing and as you've already said you are never WOT full power for minutes at a time etc.
08-14-2018, 03:49 AM
#35
9 Second Club
I can not see any reason to ever run a waterbased charge cooler in a road racing scenario. They still boil down to the ability of an A/A cooler to remove heat, but with extra weight for the other parts. The off throttle time on a big road course is not nearly enough to time to make up for the heat soak a water based charge cooler will incur over a similar weight A/A cooler.
A water based system will not require as large of a front rad to cool the water back down, which means he can improve airflow to the engine rad.
And as his turbos are out back...it would make fitting the main A2W unit at the rear also, and it would move weight further back and also help F/R weight distribution on the car ( marginal, but still something to consider )
And you do not know the nature of his road course....he has already stated there are not long periods of WOT...so yes, it would be very easy to build a system that can cool extremely well at all times. even more so as it is a low boost setup, so no huge amounts of heat to deal with.
Of course an A2A is simpler and I would almost always go that route myself...but as he clearly explained the large air core up front has caused cooling issues.
But implementing either is exactly the same...there is doing it well, and doing it badly. Don't do it badly. It really is that simple.
08-14-2018, 04:02 AM
#36
9 Second Club
Thanks Stevieturbo. That https://sirhclabs.com/ unit looks awesome. Sent link to my tuner to see if he knows about it or is interested. Syves looks cool too, sent tuner that link too. Links is NZ based so is local to me, though my tuner just got back from UK where he teamed up with a guy who is making dynos using the same system he created 10 years ago, so he may be familiar with that brand.
Robin from Torque Performance is conservative on his tunes and has done a stellar job to date over many years and several vehicles. His dyno (that he designed and built) reads lower than others but is consistent. He had my old AMG C63 507 coupe at 485rwhp on his dyno - which would have been 500 on any of the others around town (race headers, cat delete and tune). He pulls enough timing out for the boost spikes, but I have experienced a back fire (pop) when intake temps were cold and water/meth started injecting.... I need a temp switch to turn meth off until IAT comes up because water/meth drops power if injected when intake is cold (aside from possible ring damaging pops). It won't misbehave on the dyno though, so its hard to tune out. I have dropped all water and now only inject meth so that should help, but again - I think it is only any help once air intake temps are hot. I use aquamist 4 controller/jets on a US pump/tank. It kicks in around 6psi, but maybe I should turn that up to 10.
Funny what you say re the bonnet. I have 2 louvred vents to put on that bonnet just where you suggest. Just have not got around to it yet :-) Planned to put them right up against the hood bulge (left and right) as close to the front vents as still looks aesthetically pleasing. That will allow hot air to escape. I may add small air dams under the front vents to direct cold air down otherwise it will just pass right out again and do no good.
Just watched your standing 1km run - wow. That was hauling. Very cool! What kind of power to run that speed?
Robin from Torque Performance is conservative on his tunes and has done a stellar job to date over many years and several vehicles. His dyno (that he designed and built) reads lower than others but is consistent. He had my old AMG C63 507 coupe at 485rwhp on his dyno - which would have been 500 on any of the others around town (race headers, cat delete and tune). He pulls enough timing out for the boost spikes, but I have experienced a back fire (pop) when intake temps were cold and water/meth started injecting.... I need a temp switch to turn meth off until IAT comes up because water/meth drops power if injected when intake is cold (aside from possible ring damaging pops). It won't misbehave on the dyno though, so its hard to tune out. I have dropped all water and now only inject meth so that should help, but again - I think it is only any help once air intake temps are hot. I use aquamist 4 controller/jets on a US pump/tank. It kicks in around 6psi, but maybe I should turn that up to 10.
Funny what you say re the bonnet. I have 2 louvred vents to put on that bonnet just where you suggest. Just have not got around to it yet :-) Planned to put them right up against the hood bulge (left and right) as close to the front vents as still looks aesthetically pleasing. That will allow hot air to escape. I may add small air dams under the front vents to direct cold air down otherwise it will just pass right out again and do no good.
Just watched your standing 1km run - wow. That was hauling. Very cool! What kind of power to run that speed?
As it isnt an all out build, 50/50 probably makes more sense than straight meth and will offer more detonation resistance for less fluid usage vs straight meth.
But the Aquamist is a good system as a standalone.
And it certainly looks/sounds like your tuner is competent. I'd be shocked if he hasnt heard of some of the ecu's mentioned ( of course another local is Haltech which offer some great stuff )
A large expense for any to get fully fitted and running...but they do have the potential for lots of benefits and all with a single control unit instead of multiple boxes.
08-15-2018, 03:38 PM
#37
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Agree that it'd be good to control everything in 1 box. Would you still run a https://sirhclabs.com/ with a Syves ECU? My tuner has experience with Syves and is currently fitting one on a Lambo and on a very worked Ford Focus 2.5RS, so that's good to hear :-)
I'm a big fan of water/meth - used it for years without any intercooler. It was worth 60-70rwhp on the Ls1 and LS3 pre intercooler. What I'm saying is that my current set up with big front mount does NOT like it until it is hot. I have no doubt we could retune for it i.e. map the water for the new setup, lean the fuel out a little, and run 4 degrees more timing - but I have a safe tune now and have no need to push the limits... so to keep it simple I got 2 larger jets (from Aquamist) and went 100% meth - which is just adding fuel and should not require a complete retune until I have other reasons to do so...
On water, the motor stumbles/pops when 50/50 is added (until IATs are up) and we didn't have the time to waste having to remap then retune it to make it work. TBH I turn it off mostly, but see it as useful later when I'll be leaning on a stronger motor. I hate to hear that thing pop, I swear it has caused the 10-15psi drop in compression (on 1), hence I dropped the water. I think the pre-intercooler water map sends too much too soon (despite lifting the kick in point to 8psi) so I played safe. Do you think I should go to the effort of 50/50 remapping or stay with 100% meth for now? As meth only comes in at the very top end of boost, it does not use a lot.... unless on track days.
I'm a big fan of water/meth - used it for years without any intercooler. It was worth 60-70rwhp on the Ls1 and LS3 pre intercooler. What I'm saying is that my current set up with big front mount does NOT like it until it is hot. I have no doubt we could retune for it i.e. map the water for the new setup, lean the fuel out a little, and run 4 degrees more timing - but I have a safe tune now and have no need to push the limits... so to keep it simple I got 2 larger jets (from Aquamist) and went 100% meth - which is just adding fuel and should not require a complete retune until I have other reasons to do so...
On water, the motor stumbles/pops when 50/50 is added (until IATs are up) and we didn't have the time to waste having to remap then retune it to make it work. TBH I turn it off mostly, but see it as useful later when I'll be leaning on a stronger motor. I hate to hear that thing pop, I swear it has caused the 10-15psi drop in compression (on 1), hence I dropped the water. I think the pre-intercooler water map sends too much too soon (despite lifting the kick in point to 8psi) so I played safe. Do you think I should go to the effort of 50/50 remapping or stay with 100% meth for now? As meth only comes in at the very top end of boost, it does not use a lot.... unless on track days.
08-15-2018, 03:54 PM
#38
9 Second Club
Syvecs will do all the boost control you could need, there would be no need for an external controller. ( and so would any decent ecu really )
Unless you were injecting large amounts of water and un-metered...there is no reason at all for it to cause any negative effects on running. Are you using any "progressive" or flow controls for what you are injecting ?
or is it just a simple pump off/on ?
water or meth ( or any mix ) will offer detonation suppression/resistance regardless of charge temps....what happens outside the chamber and inside are two different jobs the injected liquid can do.
If your tune is good and safe, whether you inject water, 50/50, or 100% meth really makes no odds if you're only doing so as a safety precaution. If anything there, 50/50 in sensible quantities is probably much safer than straight meth and as it will not richen the mixture up as much...should run cleaner. But as has been said many many times, 100% meth is sort of idiot proof. In that idiots can dump in as much as they want and it's hard to make a screw up of it.
But when you start using water....injecting too much or having poor flow metering....well engines dont really like water in terms of combustion...because water doesnt combust lol.
But water is a superb in cylinder coolant and detonation suppressant...far more so than methanol.....except methanol will also burn
So you need to find the balance that works for you.
But even with 50/50 myself and with fairly large nozzles.....doesnt matter when I inject, it has no ill effects on the running of the engine whatsoever.
But I only use it on either very hot days, or when actually racing. As I can make more power than traction without it anyway and it's not that often charge temps are terrible either.
Unless you were injecting large amounts of water and un-metered...there is no reason at all for it to cause any negative effects on running. Are you using any "progressive" or flow controls for what you are injecting ?
or is it just a simple pump off/on ?
water or meth ( or any mix ) will offer detonation suppression/resistance regardless of charge temps....what happens outside the chamber and inside are two different jobs the injected liquid can do.
If your tune is good and safe, whether you inject water, 50/50, or 100% meth really makes no odds if you're only doing so as a safety precaution. If anything there, 50/50 in sensible quantities is probably much safer than straight meth and as it will not richen the mixture up as much...should run cleaner. But as has been said many many times, 100% meth is sort of idiot proof. In that idiots can dump in as much as they want and it's hard to make a screw up of it.
But when you start using water....injecting too much or having poor flow metering....well engines dont really like water in terms of combustion...because water doesnt combust lol.
But water is a superb in cylinder coolant and detonation suppressant...far more so than methanol.....except methanol will also burn
So you need to find the balance that works for you.
But even with 50/50 myself and with fairly large nozzles.....doesnt matter when I inject, it has no ill effects on the running of the engine whatsoever.
But I only use it on either very hot days, or when actually racing. As I can make more power than traction without it anyway and it's not that often charge temps are terrible either.
08-15-2018, 05:57 PM
#39
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Good points, I suspect the water meteringand map needs a look. We've struck leaking jets before and replaced them. System has done a few years now so is likely due for a good going over.
Do you have a thread about your car? I'd be keen to have a look at what you've done :-)
Do you have a thread about your car? I'd be keen to have a look at what you've done :-)
08-16-2018, 05:30 AM
#40
9 Second Club
No threads on mine.
Are you metering if with a full Aquamist system ? ie their FAV valve and metering relative to injector duty cycle, or is it a basic off/on system ? What size jets ?
Are you metering if with a full Aquamist system ? ie their FAV valve and metering relative to injector duty cycle, or is it a basic off/on system ? What size jets ?