How much can you get from a T3?
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From: Norn Iron
This all seems like a silly thread, when he hasnt even stated what turbo options he's willing to explore or his budget etc, other than T3...which could literally mean hundreds of turbo choices.
Unless he actually means specifically the ancient Garrett T3 frame, rather than just a T3 flanged turbine.
You can get a 372SXE with a T3 flange, you can get an EFR9180 with a T3 flange....really, the flange means little and there are 4 figure capable T3 flanged units out there ( on an appropriate motor of course )
And also very different range of turbine wheels too .
So to ask only 4-500hp with one with decent spool etc, should be very easily doable.
If you were to look at most OEM turbo setups, they too would seem incredibly small for the application, but they will still perform very well everywhere and spool/low rpm torque is always important to them, often with a small sacrifice up top.
but equally, it's as easy to buy a T4 flanged turbo as it is a T3....so why make things difficult ?
but for only 450-500....turbo or boost would be a total waste of time/effort. Just fit a bigger motor.
Unless he actually means specifically the ancient Garrett T3 frame, rather than just a T3 flanged turbine.
You can get a 372SXE with a T3 flange, you can get an EFR9180 with a T3 flange....really, the flange means little and there are 4 figure capable T3 flanged units out there ( on an appropriate motor of course )
And also very different range of turbine wheels too .
So to ask only 4-500hp with one with decent spool etc, should be very easily doable.
If you were to look at most OEM turbo setups, they too would seem incredibly small for the application, but they will still perform very well everywhere and spool/low rpm torque is always important to them, often with a small sacrifice up top.
but equally, it's as easy to buy a T4 flanged turbo as it is a T3....so why make things difficult ?
but for only 450-500....turbo or boost would be a total waste of time/effort. Just fit a bigger motor.
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@stevieturbo
Learning things is never silly and I can admit that I've been schooled here. After some research, I discovered any stock L86, LT1, LSX376 or LS3 will do what I need without a turbo. There are at least 4 other LS models that are within 10% of those above. If I want those numbers with a turbo, I need a smaller engine. Unfortunately, I bought an engine before registering here
An associate had suggested I look into an LKW or LCV Ecotec if I must have a turbo. Does anyone know if these four cylinders have the same footprint and mount points as an LS?
Learning things is never silly and I can admit that I've been schooled here. After some research, I discovered any stock L86, LT1, LSX376 or LS3 will do what I need without a turbo. There are at least 4 other LS models that are within 10% of those above. If I want those numbers with a turbo, I need a smaller engine. Unfortunately, I bought an engine before registering here
An associate had suggested I look into an LKW or LCV Ecotec if I must have a turbo. Does anyone know if these four cylinders have the same footprint and mount points as an LS?
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
I would imagine it very very unlikely for any 4cyl engine to have the same mounting points as any LS motor, nor mate to the same trans etc etc etc
And there is no reason you cannot boost whatever engine you bought, but dont limit yourself to one ancient baby turbocharger. There are still dozens if not hundreds of cheap turbo options out there of all shapes and sizes that will suit your needs.
And there is no reason you cannot boost whatever engine you bought, but dont limit yourself to one ancient baby turbocharger. There are still dozens if not hundreds of cheap turbo options out there of all shapes and sizes that will suit your needs.
On The Tree
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From: North Vanacouver , BC
https://agpturbo.com/borg-warner-s362-s300sx3-fmw-s300-62-68-billet-62/
How about something like this , it should start spooling around 2k mark with a 5.3 , also you could punch out the 5.3 to 5.7 the added displacement should help spool.
How about something like this , it should start spooling around 2k mark with a 5.3 , also you could punch out the 5.3 to 5.7 the added displacement should help spool.
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Teching In
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I've noted there are lots of ways to get to my goal and I'm looking for the most economical one. I'm pretty sure I can trade in my LC9 for a stock 6.2L that'll do what I want for less than what it would cost me to cam and or rebore. At this point, the trade in for a bigger NA looks best overall but also under consideration is a boosted Ecotec LCV or LKW. It looks like even the anemic Ford Windsor has too much air for the GT35 so it'll surely be choked by the ancient and tiny T3-48 on the SVO
Thread Starter
Teching In
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There's a cool little video on this page that shows engine dyno with an LM9 and an S480. A stock setup with the S480 turbo produces 450ft/lbs. of torque at around 3000 and keeps it above that level to over 6000rpm. I'm thinking with some pressure regulation, this setup could give me what I want without too many expensive after market parts. Here's the cost breakdown:
S480 $340
T4 flange adapter $85
pressure regulation $210
If I can use the stock manifold and intake, this is cheaper than the price difference in the NA trade up. Maybe I don't have to trade in my LC9 after all? Check out the video and tell me if it changed anyone's mind.
Merry Christmas for the next 11 days.
S480 $340
T4 flange adapter $85
pressure regulation $210
If I can use the stock manifold and intake, this is cheaper than the price difference in the NA trade up. Maybe I don't have to trade in my LC9 after all? Check out the video and tell me if it changed anyone's mind.
Merry Christmas for the next 11 days.
Last edited by yldouright; Dec 26, 2018 at 12:34 PM.
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From: Ohio
@JoeNova
I've never thrashed 8lb/hp around a track in a car but I have lots of experience handling thrust on my FZR1000 bike. I shouldn't be too much out of sorts with 400ft/lbs at 1600rpm which by my estimates is only ~120hp at that point, not the 400+ described in your post above.
I just want a nice flat 400ft/lb. torque curve that lasts for most of the rev range and tops off at ~5600rpm. No phrenetic rev climber, just a nice, polite Q-ship with some ***** when required.
I've never thrashed 8lb/hp around a track in a car but I have lots of experience handling thrust on my FZR1000 bike. I shouldn't be too much out of sorts with 400ft/lbs at 1600rpm which by my estimates is only ~120hp at that point, not the 400+ described in your post above.
I just want a nice flat 400ft/lb. torque curve that lasts for most of the rev range and tops off at ~5600rpm. No phrenetic rev climber, just a nice, polite Q-ship with some ***** when required.
Torque is VERY high early on, not flat and smooth. You're maxing out of the air flow of the turbo down low, which is horsepower, not torque. When you have a turbo capable of just 300 horsepower on a large engine, it maxes out the lb/min airflow and makes that 300 horsepower down low, which can be 700+ ft-lbs depending on RPM.
You end up with a flat horsepower curve, not a flat torque curve.
Ever see what happens when the 4 cylinder guys try to max out their stock turbos?
Even worse, when the SRT-4 guys try to max out their stock turbos. You're looking at 450+ ft lbs of torque down low on a 4-cylinder.
Since the image quality is so bad when I try to put it here, I'll just give you a link. That first post is all you need.
https://www.srtforums.com/forums/f87...et-log-610308/
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Launching!
Joined: Jan 2018
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single t3 turbo is too small for even a stock 5.7 with stock cam. it will choke up at almost any boost. even up 5psi it would choke the engine putting so much backpressure into the exhaust manifolds from the turbine bottle neck. it would build enough back pressure to push the wastegate open to relieve itself. it would still have excessive backpressure. power would roll over so early, boost would fall off and the engine would likely die an early death from the back pressure.
T4 minimum.... T6 on anything 6.0 or 6.2 with more than 15 psi and T6 only for 380 plus cubes. if you don't want lag, go twins to meet in the middle. t3 flange for twins is a different story
T4 minimum.... T6 on anything 6.0 or 6.2 with more than 15 psi and T6 only for 380 plus cubes. if you don't want lag, go twins to meet in the middle. t3 flange for twins is a different story
There's a cool little video on [url=https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make-503hp-with-a-350-junkyard-302/#]this page that shows engine dyno with an LM9 and an S480. A stock setup with the S480 turbo produces 450ft/lbs. of torque at around 3000 and keeps it above that level to over 6000rpm. I'm thinking with some pressure regulation, this setup could give me what I want without too many expensive after market parts. Here's the cost breakdown:
S480 $340
T4 flange adapter $85
pressure regulation $210
If I can use the stock manifold and intake, this is cheaper than the price difference in the NA trade up. Maybe I don't have to trade in my LC9 after all? Check out the video and tell me if it changed anyone's mind.
Merry Christmas for the next 11 days.
S480 $340
T4 flange adapter $85
pressure regulation $210
If I can use the stock manifold and intake, this is cheaper than the price difference in the NA trade up. Maybe I don't have to trade in my LC9 after all? Check out the video and tell me if it changed anyone's mind.
Merry Christmas for the next 11 days.
Yep, Do that. 450ft.-lbs at 3000 with boost coming in hard right there on a Fox Body road racer. That will not spin the tires to oblivion out of every curve......
You seriously need to stop looking at torque and power numbers and figure out a good all around combination. I would seriously look into spending time and money in the chassis/suspension/tires first. But I am not any kind of pro so I have no real experience........
Thread Starter
Teching In
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@1CAMWNDR
You're absolutely right and I'm not ignoring the handling aspects here. The fox is going to get a watts in the rear, time on a four point scale and the stickiest compound I can buy for the stock wheels. If I can get the boost to come on politely, I should be okay with ~400ft/lbs. Remember, my planned result will be way under 3500lbs. with driver and it has adjustable Konis. By many accounts, its front is not bad and is likely to be better with a K-member upgrade. Would I be able to tame the S480 in the link with pressure regulation? The idea is to imitate the long, table flat torque curve you get on an Audi turbo at ~400ft/lbs.
@Luke19901
Yes, I was saved from the potential disaster of trying to use the T3-48 earlier in this thread and I appreciated that.
@JoeNova
Yes, you have successfully dissuaded me from using either the GT-35 or the stock T3-48 with any eight cylinder. I even looked at putting a snail on a 5L Windsor. That would save me the cost of a K-member but that savings would be lost with a need for 8 >36lb injectors. The LC9 with a proper turbo and pressure regulation was my hope but after studying some of the NA 6.2Ls, the practicality of going NA is evident. I just have to careful with the throttle given the elevated torque level in the midrange of the 6.2L. I really wouldn't be comfortable with more than 425ft/lbs. with the current drivetrain, ditto for 450HP at the wheels.
You're absolutely right and I'm not ignoring the handling aspects here. The fox is going to get a watts in the rear, time on a four point scale and the stickiest compound I can buy for the stock wheels. If I can get the boost to come on politely, I should be okay with ~400ft/lbs. Remember, my planned result will be way under 3500lbs. with driver and it has adjustable Konis. By many accounts, its front is not bad and is likely to be better with a K-member upgrade. Would I be able to tame the S480 in the link with pressure regulation? The idea is to imitate the long, table flat torque curve you get on an Audi turbo at ~400ft/lbs.
@Luke19901
Yes, I was saved from the potential disaster of trying to use the T3-48 earlier in this thread and I appreciated that.
@JoeNova
Yes, you have successfully dissuaded me from using either the GT-35 or the stock T3-48 with any eight cylinder. I even looked at putting a snail on a 5L Windsor. That would save me the cost of a K-member but that savings would be lost with a need for 8 >36lb injectors. The LC9 with a proper turbo and pressure regulation was my hope but after studying some of the NA 6.2Ls, the practicality of going NA is evident. I just have to careful with the throttle given the elevated torque level in the midrange of the 6.2L. I really wouldn't be comfortable with more than 425ft/lbs. with the current drivetrain, ditto for 450HP at the wheels.
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From: Ohio
You could run something like a T4 S362 with a torquey cam like a triple 12 on a 5.3 with only 6 PSI or so and make 450-500 ft lbs with about the same power.
Powering out of corners with a turbo will be your downfall, with torque increasing by 200 ft-lbs within 500-700 RPM. All of which can be easily avoided with some practice and proper boost control.
A 6.2 will have a far more predictable power delivery.
Powering out of corners with a turbo will be your downfall, with torque increasing by 200 ft-lbs within 500-700 RPM. All of which can be easily avoided with some practice and proper boost control.
A 6.2 will have a far more predictable power delivery.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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Originally Posted by JoeNova
6.2 will have a far more predictable power delivery.
Merry Christmas for the next 10 days!
Thread Starter
Teching In
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@stevieturbo
Is it as simple as that? Will the boost controller interact with the ECU to dial in a specific torque outcome? I was under the impression that a pressure regulation system had more to it than a boost controller.
Is it as simple as that? Will the boost controller interact with the ECU to dial in a specific torque outcome? I was under the impression that a pressure regulation system had more to it than a boost controller.
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From: Ohio
Modern boost controllers and aftermarket ECUs can easily contain a dozen boost control strategies.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
You didnt ask about a torque controller, you asked about controlling boost.
So no of course a "boost controller" does not target a specific torque, nor does it need to interact with the ecu as such.
If you want something where you can dial in specific torque vs rpm/demand etc, then there are aftermarket ecu's that con offer you such a feature, but obviously they are quite complex.
If you want a boost controller that will offer a range of boost control options, there are dozens available. Up to you to choose one that does what you want it to do.
So no of course a "boost controller" does not target a specific torque, nor does it need to interact with the ecu as such.
If you want something where you can dial in specific torque vs rpm/demand etc, then there are aftermarket ecu's that con offer you such a feature, but obviously they are quite complex.
If you want a boost controller that will offer a range of boost control options, there are dozens available. Up to you to choose one that does what you want it to do.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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@JoeNova
If I understood you, modern boost controllers will communicate with the ECU and limit the boost at any given rpm. This would seem to resolve all the problems with the LC9 as long as the turbo map suits the engine air flow.. If I can limit the boost with granularity until I want it, what stops me from making the torque curve I want? If you can provide a short list of those controllers or the feature acronyms to look for, that would be great.
If I understood you, modern boost controllers will communicate with the ECU and limit the boost at any given rpm. This would seem to resolve all the problems with the LC9 as long as the turbo map suits the engine air flow.. If I can limit the boost with granularity until I want it, what stops me from making the torque curve I want? If you can provide a short list of those controllers or the feature acronyms to look for, that would be great.
Last edited by yldouright; Dec 27, 2018 at 08:28 AM.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Modern boost controllers will do what you tell them to do, within the capabilities of your chosen controller.
The best value and most flexible standalone controller at the minute would be this one. But there are dozens of others, but none will overcome mechanical limitations of a turbo system
https://sirhclabs.com/
The best value and most flexible standalone controller at the minute would be this one. But there are dozens of others, but none will overcome mechanical limitations of a turbo system
https://sirhclabs.com/
Restricted User
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From: Ohio
If I understood you, modern boost controllers will communicate with the ECU and limit the boost at any given rpm. This would seem to resolve all the problems with the LC9 as long as the turbo map suits the engine air flow.. If I can limit the boost with granularity until I want it, what stops me from making the torque curve I want? If you can provide a short list of those controllers or the feature acronyms to look for, that would be great.