Let's beat a dead horse and talk intakes - Page 2 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Notices
Forced Induction Superchargers | Turbochargers | Intercoolers

Let's beat a dead horse and talk intakes

 
Old 01-03-2019, 10:03 AM
  #21  
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
blackandgold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,331
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
Do you not see the duality of this?
You don't want to spend a ton of money with expensive heads, intake, long tubes, stroker kits, solid roller, roller rockers, etc, so you go with boost.
Then you decide "I don't want to run much boost, I'll just go buy some of that other stuff instead".

I get extremely perplexed when someone says "I just want low boost". But why? Why is everyone so afraid to run a slightly higher boost number, and would rather spend $2000 on head/cam/intake on parts to run 4 PSI less boost to make the exact same power.
I can see what you're saying and in my case where I have a running engine with a procharger on it, it makes sense to just click up the boost a bit. But when I start building more of a max effort setup I don't see any reason why I wouldn't want to maximize everything I can.
blackandgold is online now  
Old 01-03-2019, 10:07 AM
  #22  
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 8,156
Default

The benefit of 317's is lowering compression to run MORE boost....not because they flow so much better lol. Doing it again I wouldn't even do an LS6 intake. The entire intake tract is pressurized and much of the gain of an intake is from additional plenum volume.....which doesn't do a whole heck of a lot in this instance. I, however, would do valve springs as theyre cheap insurance.
ddnspider is online now  
Old 01-03-2019, 10:20 AM
  #23  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,695
Default

Boost and octane have no direct correlation to each other. I've tuned smaller engines that made 40 PSI on 93 octane before.
Higher pressure raises the boiling and flash points of gasoline.
Pressure DOES decrease the autoignition temperature, but we'll get to that at the end.

And boost being a measurement of restriction is a bit of a misunderstanding. It is a measurement of resistance on the compressor, not the engine. You could run heads/intake with 6" wide ports and a 10" throttle body that poses ZERO restriction to flow, but you're still going to be making boost if the compressor inlet is pulling in more CFM than the engine can pull in by itself.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: airmass determines power/torque production.
If boost was a measurement of restriction, it would be highest before the valve, and would drop afterwards once entering the cylinder.
Whether boost is 25 PSI in the intake manifold or 5 PSI in the intake manifold, if the end result is the same amount of power, its because the airmass and boost pressure in the cylinder was the same, regardless of what it was in the intake manifold (as long as the camshaft and static compression ratio are the same). Since autoignition doesn't occur in the intake manifold, pre-cylinder pressure is completely irrelevant to knock/autoignition/octane, etc. You might increase the chances of a tuning error using a wider spread of the fueling/spark tables, or complications involving excess heat, but that's easily dealt with.

Long story short, heads/intake or any other pre-cylinder flow restrictions you might have will have NO effect on chances of knock with pump gas, because the cylinder pressure will be the same for a given power level, meaning that pressure's effect on autoignition temperature doesn't apply.

You want to change something that will allow you to make more power on less boost with a direct effect on your chances of knock with pump gas? Camshafts are the exception to the rule.
Everything else, you're literally throwing your money away.
JoeNova is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 10:39 AM
  #24  
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 8,156
Default

^I'd love 2 particular individuals on here to get in here and reply to that post with their podcast crap.
ddnspider is online now  
Old 01-03-2019, 12:13 PM
  #25  
10 Second Club
iTrader: (2)
 
BCNUL8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oskaloosa, Iowa
Posts: 528
Default

Originally Posted by ddnspider View Post
^I'd love 2 particular individuals on here to get in here and reply to that post with their podcast crap.
Everyone that has something to sell disagrees with him, but can’t explain with technical details why.
BCNUL8R is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:00 PM
  #26  
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 8,156
Default

Originally Posted by BCNUL8R View Post


Everyone that has something to sell disagrees with him, but can’t explain with technical details why.
Oh I know. I got into an argument about boost vs. cylinder heads with 2 geniuses on here who refused to listen to logic and math and only listened to podcasts and haven't built a boosted LS in their life. Would just love to see them argue with Joe's post. Comical.
ddnspider is online now  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:27 PM
  #27  
TECH Resident
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 796
Default

See and that's interesting because it seems like there's two camps for these opposing ideas.
One camp says just add boost while the other camp encourages increasing airflow throughout the engine via heads, cam, intake etc.
I don't think saying you can push 40 lbs. on pump gas with a 2.0L engine is an applicable comparison since I don't know any LS guys doing that.
The consensus seems to be 12-14 lbs. on a 9.5:1 compression LS using pump fuel only is about as far as you want to go safely.
So wouldn't it make sense then to have as much flow as possible being fuel and boost limited?
The BallSS is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:33 PM
  #28  
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
 
Pro Stock John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 42,479
Default

@ OP, you are running a stock cam now?

I'd do a boost cam, you need better springs and LS6 intake.
Pro Stock John is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:41 PM
  #29  
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 8,156
Default

Originally Posted by The ****** View Post
See and that's interesting because it seems like there's two camps for these opposing ideas.
One camp says just add boost while the other camp encourages increasing airflow throughout the engine via heads, cam, intake etc.
I don't think saying you can push 40 lbs. on pump gas with a 2.0L engine is an applicable comparison since I don't know any LS guys doing that.
The consensus seems to be 12-14 lbs. on a 9.5:1 compression LS using pump fuel only is about as far as you want to go safely.
So wouldn't it make sense then to have as much flow as possible being fuel and boost limited?
Entirely dependent on the setup. SBE? Forged motor? 93 or E85 pump? Also depends on backpressure and island efficiency. When you're running 6 psi, doing heads and intake is a waste of money compared to running 20 psi on pump.
ddnspider is online now  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:41 PM
  #30  
10 Second Club
iTrader: (2)
 
BCNUL8R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oskaloosa, Iowa
Posts: 528
Default

Originally Posted by The ****** View Post
See and that's interesting because it seems like there's two camps for these opposing ideas.
One camp says just add boost while the other camp encourages increasing airflow throughout the engine via heads, cam, intake etc.
I don't think saying you can push 40 lbs. on pump gas with a 2.0L engine is an applicable comparison since I don't know any LS guys doing that.
The consensus seems to be 12-14 lbs. on a 9.5:1 compression LS using pump fuel only is about as far as you want to go safely.
So wouldn't it make sense then to have as much flow as possible being fuel and boost limited?
Reread Joe’s post he already answered your question.
BCNUL8R is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 01:44 PM
  #31  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,695
Default

What I said was in relation to spending money on induction to reduce boost pressure because of fueling.
Making 800 horsepower on the current setup at 8 PSI with TFS220s and a FAST or MSD 102 is going to be the same detonation wise as just swapping pulleys and making 800 horsepower at 12-14 PSI.

Power production is something else entirely. The shape of the curve and RPM peaks will be changed. Those should be your main reasons for upgrading. Since the LS1 and LS6 intakes have very similar curves/peaks, there is basically no real advantage to swapping except wallet weight reduction.

I don't know where the 12-14 PSI recommendation came from unless it was 10 years ago. I could see it being used as a rule of thumb for limiting power to keep the rods alive, but definitely not for keeping it pump gas friendly.
I maxed out the billet S475 and deka 80s on 93 with a 10:1 5.3 at 26 PSI with zero knock retard.
Don't be a afraid of boost. The ONLY thing working harder with high boost is the thing that's producing it.
JoeNova is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 02:07 PM
  #32  
TECH Resident
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Washington
Posts: 796
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
What I said was in relation to spending money on induction to reduce boost pressure because of fueling.
Making 800 horsepower on the current setup at 8 PSI with TFS220s and a FAST or MSD 102 is going to be the same detonation wise as just swapping pulleys and making 800 horsepower at 12-14 PSI.

Power production is something else entirely. The shape of the curve and RPM peaks will be changed. Those should be your main reasons for upgrading. Since the LS1 and LS6 intakes have very similar curves/peaks, there is basically no real advantage to swapping except wallet weight reduction.

I don't know where the 12-14 PSI recommendation came from unless it was 10 years ago. I could see it being used as a rule of thumb for limiting power to keep the rods alive, but definitely not for keeping it pump gas friendly.
I maxed out the billet S475 and deka 80s on 93 with a 10:1 5.3 at 26 PSI with zero knock retard.
Don't be a afraid of boost. The ONLY thing working harder with high boost is the thing that's producing it.
Ah okay, I see what you're saying and it makes sense.
Cylinder pressure for a given power level is the ultimate determining factor which is what I've heard from others as well.
I'm sure you agree there's enough good and bad info out there that you have to be careful what you take in lol.
The BallSS is offline  
Old 01-03-2019, 02:55 PM
  #33  
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
blackandgold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,331
Default

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John View Post
@ OP, you are running a stock cam now?

I'd do a boost cam, you need better springs and LS6 intake.
Yep the engine has never been cracked open. Originally I was going to go to a more boost friendly cam, but I'm planning on romping on the stock motor all summer and doing something forged when it pops or next winter whichever comes first and max out the D1. With that in mind I think it makes sense to buy parts (if they offer some benefit) that I can carry over should I punch a hole in one of the pistons. An 8-rib upgrade and ls6 intake *seem* to fit that bill..


So basically yeah I want to do a cam, but after this thread and some more research I think I'd like to wait until my power goals are much higher than somewhere close to 500whp.
blackandgold is online now  
Old 01-04-2019, 06:00 PM
  #34  
Launching!
 
BillyFargon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 208
Default

This thread has me re-thinking my life! I feel now I should just get a turbo setup on my stock 6.0 and call it good!
BillyFargon is online now  
Old 01-05-2019, 12:07 AM
  #35  
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
 
Pro Stock John's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 42,479
Default

Okay then, I'd do an LS6 intake and a new set of valve springs.
Pro Stock John is offline  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:52 AM
  #36  
TECH Resident
 
slocaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: sarasota fl
Posts: 931
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
So would another 1 PSI.

Spending money on unnecessary parts to increase your power completely defeats the purpose of adding boost to overcome the need to spend lots of money on parts to increase your power...
this is prob one of Confucius's very first famous quotes.
basicly its poetry.
i will live by this.
slocaddy is offline  
Old 01-05-2019, 11:26 PM
  #37  
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
blackandgold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 1,331
Default

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John View Post
Okay then, I'd do an LS6 intake and a new set of valve springs.
This is the route I'm going, I've got an LS6 intake in the mail from a member, and we'll toss a set of more budget conscious springs on at the same time.
blackandgold is online now  
Old 01-06-2019, 02:52 AM
  #38  
On The Tree
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: North Vanacouver , BC
Posts: 116
Default

Originally Posted by JoeNova View Post
Boost and octane have no direct correlation to each other. I've tuned smaller engines that made 40 PSI on 93 octane before.
Higher pressure raises the boiling and flash points of gasoline.
Pressure DOES decrease the autoignition temperature, but we'll get to that at the end.

And boost being a measurement of restriction is a bit of a misunderstanding. It is a measurement of resistance on the compressor, not the engine. You could run heads/intake with 6" wide ports and a 10" throttle body that poses ZERO restriction to flow, but you're still going to be making boost if the compressor inlet is pulling in more CFM than the engine can pull in by itself.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: airmass determines power/torque production.
If boost was a measurement of restriction, it would be highest before the valve, and would drop afterwards once entering the cylinder.
Whether boost is 25 PSI in the intake manifold or 5 PSI in the intake manifold, if the end result is the same amount of power, its because the airmass and boost pressure in the cylinder was the same, regardless of what it was in the intake manifold (as long as the camshaft and static compression ratio are the same). Since autoignition doesn't occur in the intake manifold, pre-cylinder pressure is completely irrelevant to knock/autoignition/octane, etc. You might increase the chances of a tuning error using a wider spread of the fueling/spark tables, or complications involving excess heat, but that's easily dealt with.

Long story short, heads/intake or any other pre-cylinder flow restrictions you might have will have NO effect on chances of knock with pump gas, because the cylinder pressure will be the same for a given power level, meaning that pressure's effect on autoignition temperature doesn't apply.

You want to change something that will allow you to make more power on less boost with a direct effect on your chances of knock with pump gas? Camshafts are the exception to the rule.
Everything else, you're literally throwing your money away.
Thanks for the enlightening post Joe. That's what I'd always thought in my head that cylinder pressure is what determines the knock threshold of a particular setup . My only other question is as you raise boost , the drive pressure also goes up , which would cause pumping losses to be higher in case of a turbo and in a superchargers case the parasitic losses from driving it harder would go up , do you think in that case to produce X amount of HP at say 8psi would have lower cylinder pressures due to less parasitic losses than say 16 psi .
Lsx Rubi is offline  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:08 AM
  #39  
Restricted User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,695
Default

Yeah, drive pressure goes up and there are small pumping losses.
You're talking about very very small increases in cylinder pressure, because once the exhaust valve is closed, you're back to relying purely on intake air to provide cylinder pressure.
Most of the increase would come from the slight increase in cylinder pressure that remains during overlap. Then the exhaust valve closes and you rely on intake air to do the rest of the job.

We're talking 0.5 PSI max to compensate for pumping losses. It just ties into my previous argument. Run more boost until you hit your goal.
The boost number shouldn't be the worry, it should be the power you're trying to reach. As the supercharger guys say "Who cares about parasitic loss when my goal was 800 and I made 800".
JoeNova is offline  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:19 PM
  #40  
12 Second Club
 
Utinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 270
Default

This is interesting. I'm currently considering my options for a "future build". I'd really like to have a Pro-Charger, but I already swapped the heads, cam, and intake. I wish I would have started with the Pro-Charger.

How much wheel hp are you making now? According to my research, the P1 and Vortec kits make about 500 whp on stock motors. I wasn't sure if the D1 made any more. I figured the P1 would make around 580 whp with a cam/intake swap. What is your goal?
Utinator is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

About Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: