Holley Terminator X and running motor on alky/methanol/M1 ?
09-09-2019, 10:19 PM
#1
Holley Terminator X and running motor on alky/methanol/M1 ? The terminator x sure does bundle things quite well, and the UI is easy peasy.
Yet I知 looking to run my motor on alcohol/methanol/M1, and I知 now assuming I may have a dilemma. Problem I see is the sensor it comes with, and I知 not up on whether it will work well with alky or not. Plus the user can only select E85 or gasoline as fuels in the settings, which may end up meaning nothing since you can just richen the VE table to what you want it to read.
i dunno, what痴 the drawback of using alky with the terminator x ???
Yet I知 looking to run my motor on alcohol/methanol/M1, and I知 now assuming I may have a dilemma. Problem I see is the sensor it comes with, and I知 not up on whether it will work well with alky or not. Plus the user can only select E85 or gasoline as fuels in the settings, which may end up meaning nothing since you can just richen the VE table to what you want it to read.
i dunno, what痴 the drawback of using alky with the terminator x ???
09-10-2019, 10:38 AM
#2
UPDATE but opinions needed:
Got up with Holley tech, finally lol. What the gentleman told me is that the Terminator X comes with a Bosch O2 sensor, which is only really meant for light-duty street performance applications with gasoline. He advised that when using E85 or methanol it is best to use the NTK sensor. The Holley part number for it is 554-100. You simply go into the software and select the NTK sensor in settings when you swap it out and then you're good to go.
It's very pricey. And i wonder if there's a cheaper way to just wire up a store bought NTK sensor to do the same thing? At this price point I could just get a complete AEM X-series wideband controller setup and use it as an input to datalog with, and those sensors seem to work well from what I'm told - yet they use a Bosch sensor, also.
Any opinions?
Got up with Holley tech, finally lol. What the gentleman told me is that the Terminator X comes with a Bosch O2 sensor, which is only really meant for light-duty street performance applications with gasoline. He advised that when using E85 or methanol it is best to use the NTK sensor. The Holley part number for it is 554-100. You simply go into the software and select the NTK sensor in settings when you swap it out and then you're good to go.
It's very pricey. And i wonder if there's a cheaper way to just wire up a store bought NTK sensor to do the same thing? At this price point I could just get a complete AEM X-series wideband controller setup and use it as an input to datalog with, and those sensors seem to work well from what I'm told - yet they use a Bosch sensor, also.
Any opinions?
Last edited by jbtautoman; 09-10-2019 at 10:44 AM.
09-10-2019, 12:37 PM
#3
it uses the same ntk my ballenger 500 does. it just takes a different extension harness.
I use the termi-x with a bosch sensor and it's fine with e85. with 100% alky you may need the greater resolution the ntk give you at very fat (on the gasoline scale at least) AFR's
I use a FF sensor and have made a couple advanced 2d tables that allows for adding fuel globally and a spark blend table.
probably my biggest complaints so far about the terminator is the harness quality and the inability to switch the AFR to lambda
but for the money, it's hard to beat
I use the termi-x with a bosch sensor and it's fine with e85. with 100% alky you may need the greater resolution the ntk give you at very fat (on the gasoline scale at least) AFR's
I use a FF sensor and have made a couple advanced 2d tables that allows for adding fuel globally and a spark blend table.
probably my biggest complaints so far about the terminator is the harness quality and the inability to switch the AFR to lambda
but for the money, it's hard to beat
09-10-2019, 03:31 PM
#4
UPDATE but opinions needed:
Got up with Holley tech, finally lol. What the gentleman told me is that the Terminator X comes with a Bosch O2 sensor, which is only really meant for light-duty street performance applications with gasoline. He advised that when using E85 or methanol it is best to use the NTK sensor. The Holley part number for it is 554-100. You simply go into the software and select the NTK sensor in settings when you swap it out and then you're good to go.
It's very pricey. And i wonder if there's a cheaper way to just wire up a store bought NTK sensor to do the same thing? At this price point I could just get a complete AEM X-series wideband controller setup and use it as an input to datalog with, and those sensors seem to work well from what I'm told - yet they use a Bosch sensor, also.
Any opinions?
Got up with Holley tech, finally lol. What the gentleman told me is that the Terminator X comes with a Bosch O2 sensor, which is only really meant for light-duty street performance applications with gasoline. He advised that when using E85 or methanol it is best to use the NTK sensor. The Holley part number for it is 554-100. You simply go into the software and select the NTK sensor in settings when you swap it out and then you're good to go.
It's very pricey. And i wonder if there's a cheaper way to just wire up a store bought NTK sensor to do the same thing? At this price point I could just get a complete AEM X-series wideband controller setup and use it as an input to datalog with, and those sensors seem to work well from what I'm told - yet they use a Bosch sensor, also.
Any opinions?
It doesn't matter which scale you use as long as you use the appropriate numbers, its all just lambda on the backend, gauges just convert that number to something recognizable to the nut behind the keyboard.
09-10-2019, 04:21 PM
#5
it uses the same ntk my ballenger 500 does. it just takes a different extension harness.
I use the termi-x with a bosch sensor and it's fine with e85. with 100% alky you may need the greater resolution the ntk give you at very fat (on the gasoline scale at least) AFR's
I use a FF sensor and have made a couple advanced 2d tables that allows for adding fuel globally and a spark blend table.
probably my biggest complaints so far about the terminator is the harness quality and the inability to switch the AFR to lambda
but for the money, it's hard to beat
I use the termi-x with a bosch sensor and it's fine with e85. with 100% alky you may need the greater resolution the ntk give you at very fat (on the gasoline scale at least) AFR's
I use a FF sensor and have made a couple advanced 2d tables that allows for adding fuel globally and a spark blend table.
probably my biggest complaints so far about the terminator is the harness quality and the inability to switch the AFR to lambda
but for the money, it's hard to beat
09-10-2019, 04:22 PM
#6
Bosch works just fine with E85, if you already have one just run it.
It doesn't matter which scale you use as long as you use the appropriate numbers, its all just lambda on the backend, gauges just convert that number to something recognizable to the nut behind the keyboard.
It doesn't matter which scale you use as long as you use the appropriate numbers, its all just lambda on the backend, gauges just convert that number to something recognizable to the nut behind the keyboard.
And right, I agree, all it knows is the lambda reading it gathers from the sensor, and it translates this into an AFR reading - which is simple. It's just trying to get a sensor that will work with methanol that might be the trick, and I'm trying to get it all sorted out.
Last edited by jbtautoman; 09-10-2019 at 04:29 PM.
09-10-2019, 06:05 PM
#7
Not at all sure why the sensor matters. Unless the NTK just has a wider range.
I too use Ballenger Wideband. Formerly NTK wideband. I have 3. Never failed an NTK sensor.
Methanol stoich is about 6:1. Full power 4:1.
i nearly got my feet wet Tuning the Dominator. Gas, M1, then E85.
not at all sure why Holley lets you select fuel type when you still have to enter desired AFR in the fuel table.......
I just see lots of Bosch sensor failures Kind of critical in a wideband system. I壇 just pony up and buy the NTK
I too use Ballenger Wideband. Formerly NTK wideband. I have 3. Never failed an NTK sensor.
Methanol stoich is about 6:1. Full power 4:1.
i nearly got my feet wet Tuning the Dominator. Gas, M1, then E85.
not at all sure why Holley lets you select fuel type when you still have to enter desired AFR in the fuel table.......
I just see lots of Bosch sensor failures Kind of critical in a wideband system. I壇 just pony up and buy the NTK
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09-11-2019, 11:59 AM
#9
Not at all sure why the sensor matters. Unless the NTK just has a wider range.
I too use Ballenger Wideband. Formerly NTK wideband. I have 3. Never failed an NTK sensor.
Methanol stoich is about 6:1. Full power 4:1.
i nearly got my feet wet Tuning the Dominator. Gas, M1, then E85.
not at all sure why Holley lets you select fuel type when you still have to enter desired AFR in the fuel table.......
I just see lots of Bosch sensor failures Kind of critical in a wideband system. I壇 just pony up and buy the NTK
I too use Ballenger Wideband. Formerly NTK wideband. I have 3. Never failed an NTK sensor.
Methanol stoich is about 6:1. Full power 4:1.
i nearly got my feet wet Tuning the Dominator. Gas, M1, then E85.
not at all sure why Holley lets you select fuel type when you still have to enter desired AFR in the fuel table.......
I just see lots of Bosch sensor failures Kind of critical in a wideband system. I壇 just pony up and buy the NTK
I agree on Holley, lets you select fuel type for no apparent reason when you have to configure it anyways. I've seen Bosch sensors fail from time to time but hasn't been fuel specific.
09-11-2019, 02:15 PM
#11
This correct, It only has one option, No NTK option available.
Just a FYI, Holley 02 sensors are specific to Holley, "Per Danny Cabral:It's a proprietary wideband 02. sensor specifically made & calibrated for Holley EFI"
Last edited by LLLosingit; 09-11-2019 at 02:22 PM.
09-11-2019, 02:41 PM
#12
Thank you to all that have replied.
According to another phone call with Holley tech, I learned the following:
1) As stated in some of the replies above, the Terminator X indeed does use Bosch only. There is no support for an NTK sensor with the Terminator X. May be different if you use an external controller, but that kinda defeats the purpose of using what the system comes with.
2) The issue with methanol is the volume - while using methanol - that kills the sensors, especially the Bosch units.
My problem with item #2 is that I'll be running tops, a 500hp 5.3L naturally aspirated deal - not turbocharged. I mean, the volume of fuel involved here may only be equal to, if not less, than what you'd see from a snappy turbo e85 motor. So it's hard for me to believe it would be much of a concern, but I'm not an industry expert in that area.
According to another phone call with Holley tech, I learned the following:
1) As stated in some of the replies above, the Terminator X indeed does use Bosch only. There is no support for an NTK sensor with the Terminator X. May be different if you use an external controller, but that kinda defeats the purpose of using what the system comes with.
2) The issue with methanol is the volume - while using methanol - that kills the sensors, especially the Bosch units.
My problem with item #2 is that I'll be running tops, a 500hp 5.3L naturally aspirated deal - not turbocharged. I mean, the volume of fuel involved here may only be equal to, if not less, than what you'd see from a snappy turbo e85 motor. So it's hard for me to believe it would be much of a concern, but I'm not an industry expert in that area.
09-12-2019, 06:46 AM
#15
I had downloaded the Term X on my desktop just to see the dif bet that and the HP/Dom.
Found it odd they only have up to their 42 lb injs in the drop down, yet have boost control
stuff. I know there was a race to get the system out, maybe they planned on more updates later.
Found it odd they only have up to their 42 lb injs in the drop down, yet have boost control
stuff. I know there was a race to get the system out, maybe they planned on more updates later.
09-12-2019, 11:04 AM
#16
I had downloaded the Term X on my desktop just to see the dif bet that and the HP/Dom.
Found it odd they only have up to their 42 lb injs in the drop down, yet have boost control
stuff. I know there was a race to get the system out, maybe they planned on more updates later.
Found it odd they only have up to their 42 lb injs in the drop down, yet have boost control
stuff. I know there was a race to get the system out, maybe they planned on more updates later.
09-17-2019, 03:57 PM
#18
UPDATE:
From my research, it appears the reason some o2 sensors have issues with straight methanol is because the controllers (or sensors, I guess) have problems reading accurately at air/fuel ratios that low (rich). Like below 7:1, or somewhere thereabout, is hard to read. Some do this better than others. Then some die from overfueling. However, in my case, I have a hard time believing the fuel volume itself will kill the sensor bc it's only 500hp and naturally aspirated - low fuel volume compared to anything boosted.
So I don't know. This is what I've managed to come up with. I'd like to think I could just use an AEM X-series wideband kit and send it, but whatever.
From my research, it appears the reason some o2 sensors have issues with straight methanol is because the controllers (or sensors, I guess) have problems reading accurately at air/fuel ratios that low (rich). Like below 7:1, or somewhere thereabout, is hard to read. Some do this better than others. Then some die from overfueling. However, in my case, I have a hard time believing the fuel volume itself will kill the sensor bc it's only 500hp and naturally aspirated - low fuel volume compared to anything boosted.
So I don't know. This is what I've managed to come up with. I'd like to think I could just use an AEM X-series wideband kit and send it, but whatever.
