LetsTurboSomething

In my experience, every engine likes it at a different spot. Then you have to retune the VE table and stuff for where you have it set so you can't just move the activation point after that without the retuning hassle.

I engage mine at 8psi and have it ramped to hit peak at 11psi. But really you just kind of want to turn it on when the air temps get right for it because you need it to atomize very well, which it doesn't do under 110degrees. It won't atomize at all under 75 degrees. just makes a mess. This is also why lower pressure pumps kind of suck for it. You aren't able to assist the atomization with a low pressure pump. It has to come out at the same pressures of a fuel injector or higher basically. Spray pattern makes a difference just like fuel injectors.

The best part about meth injection, when you pull your engine the top end is like sparkle clean inside lol. No carbon, no sludge. Just clean metal dyed the same color as your washer fluid lol.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

Well I understand all of what you guys are saying. I’m not doing this to tune the engine to. I’m doing it for extra insurance. It’s at a point right now where it’s fine without the injection. I just want a touch of extra protection. Later on, I plan on doing it the correct way, after the turbo with a high pressure pump. But for now it’s before the turbo and it atomizes pretty good. Is it ideal? No? Will it do what I’m wanting, I hope so. I have “sprayed” it a few times under lower boost and I only noticed two things. 1) the engine seemed to pull smoother, for lack of a better description, like it struggled less from 6000rpm to 7000rpm and 2) my iat didn’t see a normal rise of 10-15 degrees. It seemed to stay where it was at and once I noticed it had dropped 2 degrees.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Post a pic of this "Stream". That's the last thing you want spraying into your impeller blades. I'm all for pre-turbo, esp at reasonable small volumes. But you need a fine mist. The reason it exits the 10 gph nozzle ins a stream is because there's not enough pressure or volume for that nozzle. I ran 2 .75gph nozzles Off a factory washer pump and it actually put out a fog. (2.0 liter engine) There's just no way a factory washer pump can keep up with a 10gph nozzle. You can damage the blades with that kind of setup. And .75 isn't enough volume to do much for an LS.

Also since you run an IC spraying 10gph preturbo is alot. Water doesn't flash to steam till 212*. So it will tend to collect and puddle in your intercooler. Ideally you want to spray a small amount pre turbo with an IC. Then the majority post IC at the TB. For example I run 3gph pre and 7post at 250psi or so. Which comes out to over 10gph once you figure in the additional pressure.Most nozzles are rated at 100psi. It's basic simple stuff, but you do have to do a little math and set it up correctly to reap the most benefits.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

My M10 nozzle is right before the TB. I want that stuff to vaporize IN the chamber lol.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

With no IC that theory doesn't hold true. U want it all pre-turbo... just spray enough that there's still plenty of fluid left to cool the engine as well. It's a tough call with an IC in the middle though, Pre-turbo actually up's the efficiency of the turbo itself by reducing the heat created as it compresses the air, as well as creating a tighter tolerances in the unit itself... Something called "wet compression". Nothing else does that... Not A2W not A2A... It actually shifts the entire compressor map to the right, making your turbo act like a larger unit. And while the benefits aren't huge, they are still benefits. So why not attempt to get the most out of your kit? Ideally you'd want to spray as much as possible pre turbo without saturation/puddling in the IC. Then spray as much as you can post turbo to pull heat form the cyls, but not drown out ignition. Then we have distribution issues with pre TB to deal with as well. So it comes down to whats practical and economical for most.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

I am aware of the shifted compressor map, but unless you're at the limit of the turbo, you don't really have a NEED to shift the compression map. Most need the added octane and phase change to pull heat from the chamber. And most street car stuff runs an IC anyways. Plus you don't have to deal with blade wheel degradation.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Blade erosion isn't a thing with a properly setup system in my experience. It's not like a diesel turbo spinning itself at max rpm 24/7. I've literally never seen any sign of blade damage and I've sprayed every turbo car I've ever owned over the last 20 years. The only time I've seen blade damage is in diesel applications setup incorrectly. Solid streams shot into small turbos spinning crazy fast over long periods of time.

My argument is... at the cost of a "T" fitting an another nozzle, Why not? You don't need to reduce what your spraying at the TB.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

The only argument I can see if if you get to the point that you're injecting so much while not compensating for its additional fuel and the motor bogs or has issues blowing out the spark. I think KFXGUY is intentionally NOT tuning it as part of his fuel, i.e. he's not pulling any fuel for when the kit is on. So spraying a bunch of meth could mess with his setup by going too rich.

JinglingBaby

So with aBillet VS7875 with a carb I壇 be good with a Snow stage2 right before the carb right? New setup just trying to get everything.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe I didn稚 explain it well enough. I disconnected the line from the washer pump, before the nozzle. So there痴 no nozzle on it, it it shot a nice stream several feet. With the nozzle on it, it creates a fine mist.

I may be shooting too much, now my afr drops down to 10.5

ill change it to a 5gph.

puddling. Maybe it might puddle, but for how long before it evaporates? Drop some water on top of the intercooler, on your car anywhere, under the hood etc......drive down the road and see how long it takes to evaporate with heat and hot air blowing across it. Common sense tells me, it痴 not going to stay long. I read people mentioning puddling. And then I just have to think to myself, how? How do you really think ANY water is going to stay in a hot air steam for long? Is this a theory? Has anyone made a rip, drove home and pulled off the intercooler piping and seen water? Just wondering......

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

it痴 too rich rich now. I gotta change the nozzle. I felt power drop last night when the meth kicked on, afr went to 10.5 or lower. I知 gonna swap back to the 5gph nozzle. As we discussed, I知 only looking for a little bit of added insurance for now. Until I can get around to doing the system as planned. This is temporary.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Or just up the boost until its not rich anymore

tblentrprz

Running open loop? Do you have programmed safeties?

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

open loop yes. Boost cut yes. Richer afr above my intended boost too.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I gotcha. But without 100psi or so, the droplet size won't be near as fine as it should be. And there's no way a 10gph nozzle flows anywhere near 10gph at washer fluid pump pressures. I'd be curious if you T'd into that line how much pressure it puts out. doubt its more than 20psi.

Methanol boils off relatively fast. at 150* but water isn't going to stay suspended long as it cools through IC Passages and does't change states till 212* or so. Also remember that water boils at a higher temp under pressure. So a lot of it will likely be stuck in the IC. Spraying pre turbo is also nice because you don't have to fight manifold pressures. A washer fluid pump would do VERY little plumbed into the charge pipe. Get a decent pump on there IMO. Dont' need a fancy one...Sub $20 cheapies that will do 130psi and plumb directly into your washer fluid reservoir are what I'd use.

LetsTurboSomething

Ya this is what I was talking about with the re-tuning issue. It's not that you want to re-tune, or that you want to use the meth to up the psi more and get more power... It's just that spraying washer fluid adds about the equivalent of adding 10% more gasoline via injector. So ya its insurance but you have to fix the tune for it to accept the insurance. And some setups just hate it at lower boost levels. I kick mine on at 8psi with an s475 but those with 78/75's and near identical other parts I've helped work on didn't want a 10gal nozzle even on the lowest ramp in rate until 12-14psi. They bogged. I still have issues with it because the resolution of the spark table on a 3 bar OS with a P59 ECM is terrible and I can't control the spark enough and I end up hitting areas with meth spraying at 10psi and only having like 6* of timing. The timing jumps from 15* to 8* going from 9psi to 11psi because i only get the 1.20g/cyl line on the table to control everything over 10psi...

I spray it as a necessity really. 90 octane is the best we have here and while 94 seems to get a lot of people on here up to 14psi, 90 only got me to 9psi before I had knock I couldn't get rid of. So far, I've sort of guessed the meth injection to be worth about 5-10 octane points at most. I can push it up to 20+ psi now but by 19psi I can't have more more than 8 degrees with the meth. That's what a lot of sloppy build guys are running with no meth spray. If i put a can of torco booster in it I can get even more out of it. I ran it one weekend on 110 and meth and was waiting for uncle Rodney to show up at 12 degrees and 22psi. I got the old pick-up truck to run an 11.2 that day lol.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

But at say 20 PSI a 10gph nozzle only flows 5.47 gph... and that's assuming the pump can keep up with 5.4 GPH worth of flow... It shouldn't be bogging down much is my point. I think the fact that he's overly rich to start with is a big issue. No reason to be that rich IMO. I've tuned a few pump gas cars and if it's knocking, drowning it with fuel isn't the answer... I never ran richer than 11.3:1 on straight pump 91. If it's knocking it's to hot spark wise. Pull spark 5-6* lower than you have now. Lean it to low 11's, then add spark while watching the plugs. Once you're there spraying 10gph or so isn't going to richen the mixture enough to make the car run poorly.

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

at 19-20lbs mine will take 12-13 degrees of timing on 93 octane. 9.4:1 compression. But I did pay attention to details when I built the engine. I did back the timing down around 11.5ish degrees before the meth. I did not add any timing back to it yet. I inject mine it at 14psi, above 60% throttle, 4000rpms. And yea, with the 10gph nozzle, it felt like it lost power when it kicked on. So I知 backing that down. I really don稚 need much.


when I tested the nozzle out the car, it did make a pretty good mist. Was it flowing 10gph? I dunno but it put out a pretty good amount of water. I doubt my washer pump puts out 10gph.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Posts #6 and #8

tblentrprz

Flow test 10gph nozzle with washer pump to see what it actually flows and then tweak nozzle size as needed. Any reason not to run closed loop to keep fuel around target when spraying? AFR safety should keep you out of trouble.