I don’t have that much $$$ in my motor. Sold a good running ls1 short block and bought a forged short block from TSp. Used all my ls1 top end and transferred it over with a custom cam from cam motion and the obvious sensor/timing set changes to put gen 4 stuff in my 04 GTO. We all have different goals mine being full interior daily capable car no issues on long drives or stop and go. It’s a heavy irs car it will never beat a well built fox body.

My motor decision is behind me I’m not going backward and second guessing that now. I also know sbe guys are like casino gamblers you only here from the ones winning. I’ve seen enough of them shut the track down for over an hour to know it doesn’t go as planned every time either. Nothing is infallible we accept that in this hobby. If ET for cheap was the only concern I wouldn’t own a GTO. I haven’t even had this car on a prepped track yet and only made 3 passes on one trip to a no prepped track yet I’m already wanting to fool with the setup because it’s what I like to do lol.

 

On that topic since everyone likes to brag how fast they went without spending any money... sloppy mechanics has established himself as the king of that and even he gave up on the GTO it just couldn’t fit his goals for what he does.

I totally get it. I drive my car to the track also so I want to use the best stuff I can. I’m only looking to run 5.9 and drive to and from the track at full weight. I think an f1a-94 at 1000-1100 rwhp can get me there just wanted to see if the LS3 block had a reasonable chance of living at that level. After that I’ll decide how far I want to go. If I want to leave it alone or turn it into a race car and move on to an aftermarket block and gear driven big procharger is a decision for the future. That’s a few years off before I make that decision though.

 

I think an LS3 block would probably have a better chance at surviving 900rwhp, and put the car on a diet.

 

For sure, but I’m not willing to take weight out of the car at this point. It’s a real nice car and only has 32,xxx miles on it. In another year or two I may feel differently but for now taking weight out isn’t an option.

I respect you guys or I wouldn’t waste time asking questions here. I’m just not going to reconsider options that were already decided like the chassis choice of a GTO or the forged ls3 currently in it. Those decisions have already been made so I’m only looking forward from where I’m currently at not backwards.

 

I think whoever upthread saod that the stock block and stock crank seem to be pretty well matched is on to something...

If you trust a stock crank with your forged rods and pistons, then you can trust your stock block.

 

I can relate to that... Can't beat cubic dollars, and I won't pretend I can. If it were in my budget, I'd just order a few built short blocks and have them on standby so I didn't ever have to deal with dirty JY engines or machine shops. Budget and time are always my main concerns though. So for folks in my situation and at sub 1000hp levels, I don't see how a forged motor is much more reliable than a properly inspected and setup SBE motor... up to a point anyway. Where that point is, is debatable.

If those guys hosing down the tracks had forged rods and pistons, would they still be hosing down the track? From what I've seen at my local track, I think most would! Assuming the tune and combo is setup well, It's been proven you can push a healthy SBE to the limit of the block. After that point the block (and crank) move and shift more than is considered reliable anyway. So why put good parts in a block that's going to shift all over hell at big power? Esp. if you want reliability. IMHO if you race, your going to break. Doesn't matter if you have a built bottom end or not. As power alone typically isn't what takes out the engines... Unless your pushing 1300-1500whp like some of the SBE record holders. Even then some manage to get a season or more out of a motor.

So if your are within a semi reliable safety margin power wise for an SBE. I tend to suggest sticking to disposable motors. It's a learning process and crap will most defiantly go wrong! So it makes sense for the tight budgeted 1000 crank and under folks IMO. (depending on weight and use of course) If you want more you are best to save up for the block that can handle the power first. Ive seen the main caps shift like crazy on forged stock block LS builds. They even shift a ton on my 800-900ish HP sbe stuff.

I talk to a ton of 275 racers in the a high 4, low 5 second range. If they make it a full season, most tear those motors down anyway. And typical engine long blocks are in the 10k+ range easy. So if guys can be semi-competitive with a $500 long block and get a season out of it? I don't see why hobbyists can't push 600-1000 crank semi reliably. And if the motor lets go your tune or combo likely needs work.

 

Disposable motors seems like a damn wasteful mindset, honestly. What you consider disposable could have been a reliable swap for someone else that wasn't going to just blow it up like an @$$hole.

Maybe if you want big power, you should build for it, instead of ruining multuple perfectly decent swap candidates before finally realizing you should have built big in the first place.

Disposable motors... disgusting.

 

"Built Big" What does that even mean? What's "Big"? And if u can make the same power and similar ET's can be run as someone who "built big" at less than a 10th of the cost... what is the reasoning to spend more?

That's a hilarious outlook to me! Disgusting? Why? They are one of the most abundant engines at the salvage yards! It's not like they are priceless works of art! They are literally junk no one wanted. Race parts and "built motors" are used up and discarded as well. This isn't a restoration type of hobby. Parts are used up... and fast at high 4 sec low 5 sec ET's. Id go as far as to say 98% of the guys that own a turbo LS on this board aren't anywhere close to those power levels. So if guys can make and SBE live a season at 8300rpm pushing 1500hp+ Why should the majority of folks on this board run "built motors"?

To be fair, the intent is not to destroy them. I don't want to pull and engine if I don't have to. The point is, if you race $hit happens. That "built" motor will let loose just as easily as an SBE if the tune isn't right (or if something goes wrong). If you have your tune and combo down the SBE can live a pretty healthy life in terms of race motors. 10 years ago if you said there were 7 second SBE 4.8s running 40-50lbs of boost through them, people would have laughed at you. You never know how far you can take something unless you try. And what Matt and many others have proven, is often the factory parts are adequate WAY beyond what was thought originally.

IMO, The "********" are poor self righteous d-bags that think then need buy the best of the best and sink 10x the amount of money necessary for their goal into an engine/car etc... For the price of a yearly "refresh" on a buds 5.0x 275 car, I could buy 3 4.8's. And that's assuming nothing breaks on his car.

Don't get me wrong If I had the disposable income, I'd build the biggest and the best I could. Then try to push that to the limit. Since I don't, I settle on disposable motors and push them as hard as my budget allows. Which is a challenge and kinda fun as well. Kinda like the stock eliminator classes.

 

Certainly with turbos stock cranks have easily done well into 4 figures. Not all stock blocks would be happy at that though.

The best all rounder does seem to be the 5.3 though

 

I wish I had a selection of cheap disposable motors here !

 

It’s amazing as soon as someone has a forged motor everyone gets but hurt about money. So let’s clear something up right now...I’m a blue collar factory worker. I’ve got 22 years here with 21 years of perfect attendance and have worked overtime every week this year except one where I only had 40 hours. I have 5 weeks of vacation I may not be able to use as we are always short staffed. I started out stacking wood on the ripline and don’t miss scheduled work ever. If money wasn’t an option I’d own a procharged C7. Like I said goals are different. I only buy what I have cash for except my house and I don’t even have a credit card. My car drives to and from the track.

I’ve seen brand new diesel trucks pulling enclosed trailers with snap on tool sets back out a fox body with a sbe LS turboed brag about how fast they went for cheap then oil down the track and give zero f&&ks about it. Then I drive my car home early because the track is down. I didn’t complain about how they spent their money.

 

Odd that you interpret it that way. I have zero ill will to anyone who has nice things! This is a hobby. There will always be different tiers based on what someone can dedicate to it. Many love cars and "hot rodding" and can't afford the hobby. Or at least think that they can't because people tell them they need "built motors" for moderate goals. Tell them they are disgusting for not building said motor! lol Acting like we are all born with silver spoons in our asses, or that we would choose to dedicate 50% of our salary towards a fun hobby. To say someone shouldn't participate in the hobby because they can't dedicate "X" amount of money to it is ridiculous!

All I'm trying to to do is point out it that you don't need to spend a weeks worth of your pay if you have moderate goals. I clearly state multiple times that if you have the budget and the funds to comfortably build something nice, do it! I would as well! I'm sure not judging anyone that does. I put "X amount" aside for my hobby. Then do what I can with it. Before the LS JY turbo craze this net me low 12 second toys. Then suddenly I'm going 9's my first outing with A $220 long block. So it opened up my eyes a bit. That doesn't mean people with nice things are doing it wrong! Just don't' rub it in someone's face when they don't choose the same path. And for the record I'm not saying you ever have... and I sure didn't mean to come off as telling you you did anything wrong or incorrect by building something nice.

If your happy with it, that's all that matters! Personally, if someone came to me and showed me how to run 10's, 9's or even 8's on the same budget that previously net me 12's... I'd have been thankful! So I was merely putting the information out there for people that aren't aware how easy and inexpensive it can be. The same 10 people or so that always post on here are fully aware of this, I know. But I assume all those "views" we get may be form people that don't. I hate to think some kid fresh out of school would think of himself as disgusting for not being able to afford a "built" motor.

A dick is a dick... if someone is laughing at hosing down a track for others... they are a dick. I tend to have compassion for those that blow an engine or damage their cars doing what they love. Its ALOT of time work/effort down the drain regardless of what they spent on the engine. I will say im out there helping mop up crap from built motors just as often as I am for stock block stuff. It's mostly driveline and radiator fluids at our track. I've never oil'd down a track from a blown SBE. Only grenaded 1 motor over the past 9 years or so and that was my first gen3 which stayed contained as well. I have crunched several ring lands, bent rods, and lifted heads over the years though. None of which caused downtime at the track.

 

Every "zero F's given" grenaded motor was a perfectly good swap candidate, that could have ran in a vehicle for another 100,000 miles... extending both the engine's and the vehicle's lifecycles for years... keeping both out of the landfills for a decade.

Instead, someone blew it up, knowing d@mn-well that they were going to blow it up. As if they blew it up on purpose. It's wasteful. And inconsiderate.

If you know, d@mn-well, that you want big boy power (the sort of power that grenades SBE motors), then you should build accordingly. What is the age-old idiom... Gotta pay to play?

Yeah, it's a hobby... enjoy it however you can. Doesn't give you free reign to be a wasteful, selfish @$$ abusing perfectly fine motors that others could use for years. It's not a matter of jealously. I want people to have nice things. I also want people to have nice things... so I don't like hearing about other people giving zero F's about ruining nice things. Sure, it's a freaking JY motor... a JY motor that could keep an old, beat up Ford out of scrap yard for another 20 years... unless some D-bag blows it up on the track, just to go get another one to destroy...

 

If I wasn’t swapping to twins I would have just kept my sbe LS3 setup. Held together and ran great for years. Still together in fact. I was gonna push it to 1050-1100 but got some money for it and grabbed a aluminum dart lsx next for added piece of mind. The D1X still had a good bit left and with it being sbe we kept the timing conservative even on e85.

 

How should I interpret it? The topic was power limits of the ls3 block. People immediately start commenting how they laugh at people with built motors and went faster with their junk yard stuff in cars that weigh 1000 lbs less than mine. There are 1000’s of turbo fox bodies out there the formula for how to do that is out there and mentioned in this forum daily if that is what someone wants to do. It’s no secret you guys aren’t superior for figuring it out. Then you mention if you could afford it you wouldn’t have to work on greasy motors lol. My current car could go 9’s at full weight on a prepped track with daily drive ability. That was my goal so it got me curious how far can I really take this thing which lead to my question here.

I also started with an ls1 and boosted it to 650-700 rwhp for a couple years before I decided to move on. I sold it and wanted a forged motor and didn’t want iron. While I will not pull weight out of the car I didn’t want to add weight up front if I didn’t need it. So here I am forged ls3 with my already owned stock LS1 top end.

Here I am right before break this morning lol. My choice of motor had nothing to do with my work ethic or not wanting a greasy motor lol



mans here I am as well I’m in my 40’s you don’t look like this without a work ethic at this age.



you all enjoy the rest of your day.

 

Let's face it though...a huge number of these engines are not blowing up. Which is the point ! If anything, those that do are in a minority.

 

This thread had such good potential and started out well....then diverged with 2 completely different arguments going on. SBE has it's place, and making good power on a SBE is hardly wasteful or done "intentionally" to blow it up. There are advantages to a forged motor and they have their place as well and there's nothing wrong with them. Different strokes for different folks.

 

**** show aside OP, looks like the deck is the weakest area. Not sure what power it takes to crack the top of the sleeve or how much the tune (aggressive timing around peak tq) contributes.

OP, knowing peak tq location on your combo and adjusting timing to be conservative around peak tq should allow you to hit your goal. Without checking motor (tear down interval dependent on power level and # of runs at max power) won't really know how well things are working and how close to the edge you are.

 

I don't see anything I posted stating you did anything incorrectly or should have went with cheap JY engines? I stated facts. Facts that I've learned through experience and talking with some of the top names in the game. Kurt Urban was nice enough to discuss these things with me and took time to view pictures of my engine, main caps, bearings, head surfaces, tunes etc... What I tried to do was be helpful and spreads that knowledge. The block and crank are closely matched in terms of strength. And they really start to shift and move aroudn 1200 crank HP. (per Kurt) So building one without the other is still leaving the weak link on the table. Put the nicest crank on the market in a stock block and your just going to damage the crank when the main caps wiggle around. So from what I've read, and when i've talked to the folks that have built literally hundreds of 1000-2000+hp motors suggest... was not to upgrade one without the other. Which makes sense to me. I'm not airing my personal opinion about the direction you choose to take, your income, or the percentage of it you choose to spend.

So why this makes you feel you need to justify your salary, occupation, and show me your pecks I'll never know! LOL but, I do wish the best of luck, and I really do mean that!

Exactly! And junk yards are scrapping these small bore motors there are so damn many of them. They aren't rare. We are saving them from being scrapped if anything. I'm not doing bonsai passes and replacing motors every weekend with a stack of 25 engines in my back yard. The current 4.8 setup has been in my car going on 3 years and ran in the 9-8 second range the entire time. I can basically run as fast as my cage cert allows with a $500 4.8. So the appeal of building an engine isn't there for me personally. I get not everyone has the same goals. BUt in may case, there aren't' zero F's given. Because I sure as F don't want to pull and replace engines if I don't have to!

If I were to take a poll of the top 1000 small tire racers in the country... I wonder how many of them have had an engine together for 3 years?

 

Well that got weird...