Using a radiator as a heat exhanger
Because in my limited A2W experience, the trunk mounted system is more than capable without the cooler. Before I had any street experience without an iced A2W, I though they were the devil. Previously all I did was help drain and fill ICE at the track. They were a mess, sweat all over the place and were a general PITA.
After playing with a friends setup, I'm hooked on them. Hell, without the water flowing the cheap A2W core cooled the charge as well as my a2a. It amazed me how well they worked without ice. (or a heat exchanger)
Main difference here being a brick core on the intake VS a remote core in the cab not sucking up heat. Maybe the smaller core won't perform near as well. Was just mentioning it might be worth a shot to try without the exchanger.
After playing with a friends setup, I'm hooked on them. Hell, without the water flowing the cheap A2W core cooled the charge as well as my a2a. It amazed me how well they worked without ice. (or a heat exchanger)
Main difference here being a brick core on the intake VS a remote core in the cab not sucking up heat. Maybe the smaller core won't perform near as well. Was just mentioning it might be worth a shot to try without the exchanger.
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From: Norn Iron
Because in my limited A2W experience, the trunk mounted system is more than capable without the cooler. Before I had any street experience without an iced A2W, I though they were the devil. Previously all I did was help drain and fill ICE at the track. They were a mess, sweat all over the place and were a general PITA.
After playing with a friends setup, I'm hooked on them. Hell, without the water flowing the cheap A2W core cooled the charge as well as my a2a. It amazed me how well they worked without ice. (or a heat exchanger)
Main difference here being a brick core on the intake VS a remote core in the cab not sucking up heat. Maybe the smaller core won't perform near as well. Was just mentioning it might be worth a shot to try without the exchanger.
After playing with a friends setup, I'm hooked on them. Hell, without the water flowing the cheap A2W core cooled the charge as well as my a2a. It amazed me how well they worked without ice. (or a heat exchanger)
Main difference here being a brick core on the intake VS a remote core in the cab not sucking up heat. Maybe the smaller core won't perform near as well. Was just mentioning it might be worth a shot to try without the exchanger.
How many valley mounted cars have you worked with and tested ?
Even cars I've owned in the past with factory chargecoolers and a frontal rad, the water would get quite warm quickly ( Subaru Legacy turbo and Toyota Celica GT4 ) and needed cooling upgraded.
Again, you seem to be talking about turbo or centri setups with a remote mounted core....which is in no way comparable. Plus I also presume drag only ?
Valley mounted setups heat up like **** as they're starting from a shitty base.
And it's sure as hell harder to route pipes and install tank in the trunk than to mount a radiator up front, short pipes, close to the core !
There are really two traditional type layouts
One you don't have reservoir capacity, And you have a large heat exchanger that needs to discharge the heat through the exchanger as fast as it is absorbing in the core underpower
And then you have opposite where you have a reservoir and no heat exchanger, and are relying on the volume of the water alone
Yes we can run a heat exchanger in this layout but it kills the flow of almost any system drastically with having the heat exchanger in series with your core.... And on top of that it neuters the ability to use ice if wanted at the track
Another thing that has to be kept in mind that can very drastically on this type setup is what is the temperature being drawn into the power adder
Like my setup I draw true ambient air into the turbo.. I add quite a bit of heat into the water every hit I also pull it back out with the core acting as the heat exchanger... It is slow to happen though
You could never run successfully at something like power Cruise where you are making hits consecutively back-to-back in a short time frame
And if you are drawing hot air into the turbo or blower.... Then you really have a one or to shot wonder... as all you are going to do is add heat to the water from ambient , Never discharging any heat
One you don't have reservoir capacity, And you have a large heat exchanger that needs to discharge the heat through the exchanger as fast as it is absorbing in the core underpower
And then you have opposite where you have a reservoir and no heat exchanger, and are relying on the volume of the water alone
Yes we can run a heat exchanger in this layout but it kills the flow of almost any system drastically with having the heat exchanger in series with your core.... And on top of that it neuters the ability to use ice if wanted at the track
Another thing that has to be kept in mind that can very drastically on this type setup is what is the temperature being drawn into the power adder
Like my setup I draw true ambient air into the turbo.. I add quite a bit of heat into the water every hit I also pull it back out with the core acting as the heat exchanger... It is slow to happen though
You could never run successfully at something like power Cruise where you are making hits consecutively back-to-back in a short time frame
And if you are drawing hot air into the turbo or blower.... Then you really have a one or to shot wonder... as all you are going to do is add heat to the water from ambient , Never discharging any heat
Last edited by rotary1307cc; Nov 18, 2020 at 03:16 PM.
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From: Norn Iron
It's easy to run ice and a front rad. Absolutely no reason you cannot have both as you will have a small reservoir usually anyway. Just make it a larger reservoir so you can run ice in it, and flow from reservoir to engine, to front rad, to reservoir.
Just means slightly cooler water will be returning to the reservoir instead of hotter water.
Just means slightly cooler water will be returning to the reservoir instead of hotter water.
You are still wasting a ton of energy from the ice and killing the flow in series. I've had a turbine flow meter on I've seen what it does
The set up I'm working on right now is unorthodox I will have data from it next year
The same 5 gallon cell with the large primary pump and independent loop to the core as it is plumbed currently
But now I will add a separate HE loop independently controlled,. This system does not need to be large, as it does not need to shed heat on par with what is being introduced but simply bring the reservoir back to ambient in the dead time between hits
The reservoir, heat exchanger, and everything will all be at the back giving you the weight bias which is huge on the street. Exchanger will be incorporated into the wing so we'll always have true ambient source
The ECU will monitor ambient temperature and water temperature to know when it needs to run
And if you want to run ice the system simply stays off
The set up I'm working on right now is unorthodox I will have data from it next year
The same 5 gallon cell with the large primary pump and independent loop to the core as it is plumbed currently
But now I will add a separate HE loop independently controlled,. This system does not need to be large, as it does not need to shed heat on par with what is being introduced but simply bring the reservoir back to ambient in the dead time between hits
The reservoir, heat exchanger, and everything will all be at the back giving you the weight bias which is huge on the street. Exchanger will be incorporated into the wing so we'll always have true ambient source
The ECU will monitor ambient temperature and water temperature to know when it needs to run
And if you want to run ice the system simply stays off
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I think it comes to how you intend to use the car. If you are tracking / road racing / spirited road driving, get as much heat exchanger in there as possible! It’s the only way you are going to keep IATs in check.
If you are drag racing or just doing short pulls on the street, add volume with a tank, like others have said, and ice down if you can.
Just depends on what you are trying to do with the car.
If you are drag racing or just doing short pulls on the street, add volume with a tank, like others have said, and ice down if you can.
Just depends on what you are trying to do with the car.
My point/question was...
If the water isn't circulated and its sitting in a 5 gal tank in the trunk while driving. Its not absorbing the manifold or bay heat. Sure the water in the core will, but that's a relatively small volume of fluid. Then when you did get into boost and kick the pump on... It would still be able to cool quite well.
If you have the fluid circulating constantly, its constantly picking up heat over time. How much is really removed from the exchanger? Esp. if a small tank is used? Woudl be interesting to see which worked better on the say 1st 2nd and 3rd pull... How often are you doing back to back pulls as well?
The radiator is huge for one. Even the honda cores are massive. Large lines, plumbing difficulties, packaging difficulties, weight, etc. I'd like to see a comparison is all I'm saying. I'm sure a full on giant *** radiator will pull some heat. But the OEM setups don't use anything like that.
If the water isn't circulated and its sitting in a 5 gal tank in the trunk while driving. Its not absorbing the manifold or bay heat. Sure the water in the core will, but that's a relatively small volume of fluid. Then when you did get into boost and kick the pump on... It would still be able to cool quite well.
If you have the fluid circulating constantly, its constantly picking up heat over time. How much is really removed from the exchanger? Esp. if a small tank is used? Woudl be interesting to see which worked better on the say 1st 2nd and 3rd pull... How often are you doing back to back pulls as well?
The radiator is huge for one. Even the honda cores are massive. Large lines, plumbing difficulties, packaging difficulties, weight, etc. I'd like to see a comparison is all I'm saying. I'm sure a full on giant *** radiator will pull some heat. But the OEM setups don't use anything like that.
The pump doesn't always have to be running is the big point. Its fine to run it on the street while not in boost without the pump running. All this will do is heat up the small volume of water in the "brick". It won't do diddly to the 5 gallons in the trunk.
Large lines and a good pump will pull a ton of heat from the valley core pretty darn quickly, esp with ambient temp water. Much more quickly than if you had a cooler inline with the "brick". Run a 5 gal tank straight to the brick with a good pump and lines. Have a boost switch or WOT switch turn the IC pump on. See how it behaves. If it heats up too much... add an independent cooler and pump to the tank with a big fan and mount it all in back. (That's what I'd do anyway)
Large lines and a good pump will pull a ton of heat from the valley core pretty darn quickly, esp with ambient temp water. Much more quickly than if you had a cooler inline with the "brick". Run a 5 gal tank straight to the brick with a good pump and lines. Have a boost switch or WOT switch turn the IC pump on. See how it behaves. If it heats up too much... add an independent cooler and pump to the tank with a big fan and mount it all in back. (That's what I'd do anyway)
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From: Norn Iron
As above, the pump only runs if you're either making it run, or allowing it to run.
But if there is a front cooler in place, having it run all the time ( I'd guess it varies speed though ? ) isn't as much of a negative.
If you have only a tank with zero cooling ability, then yes it could be a problem
But if there is a front cooler in place, having it run all the time ( I'd guess it varies speed though ? ) isn't as much of a negative.
If you have only a tank with zero cooling ability, then yes it could be a problem
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From: Norn Iron
Here is a 20 year old article about an intercooler water spray system ( see also parts 2, 3, and 4 ). But the same control setups could apply to a pump based charge cooling system.
https://www.autospeed.com/cms/a_0527/article