Is corn safer?
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
Likes: 46
From: Dayton, OH
Is corn safer? I posted this in the Fueling section and didn't get an answer. Figured I would try here.
There are various opinions about the 'safe' WHP you can run an LS3 sbe. Without picking a specific number, does the 'safe' WHP level increase if you switch from 93 octane + M1 meth to corn? Corn + M1 meth?
SBE LS3 with a cam, rocker and spring upgrades, V-2 Ti CSC. 1 7/8ths LT headers, 3" Borla S-Type (no) cat backs.
People keep recommending I switch to corn. If it will increase the 'safe' WHP level I may have to look at it sooner rather than later.
I plan to go forged next year and I am working on the supporting mods in advance. Fuel rails (Gucci), CSC rebuild/upgrade (preventative maintenance and expansion to ceramic bearings and billet Ti impeller). If it will allow me to turn it up some more is not out of the question to do the fuel pump and injectors upgrade this winter.
I'd like to get to 900 - 1,000 WHP or so eventually.
I really appreciate how awesome this forum is. Thanks!
There are various opinions about the 'safe' WHP you can run an LS3 sbe. Without picking a specific number, does the 'safe' WHP level increase if you switch from 93 octane + M1 meth to corn? Corn + M1 meth?
SBE LS3 with a cam, rocker and spring upgrades, V-2 Ti CSC. 1 7/8ths LT headers, 3" Borla S-Type (no) cat backs.
People keep recommending I switch to corn. If it will increase the 'safe' WHP level I may have to look at it sooner rather than later.
I plan to go forged next year and I am working on the supporting mods in advance. Fuel rails (Gucci), CSC rebuild/upgrade (preventative maintenance and expansion to ceramic bearings and billet Ti impeller). If it will allow me to turn it up some more is not out of the question to do the fuel pump and injectors upgrade this winter.
I'd like to get to 900 - 1,000 WHP or so eventually.
I really appreciate how awesome this forum is. Thanks!
E-85 absolutely allows a much higher threshold to issues, and by doing that, also welcomes more horsepower...
BUT, that isn't a freebie by any stretch. You need to do some reading about the extra fueling capacity you'll absolutely NEED to run E-85 without headaches.
My car is tuned for 16# of boost, but has been fine as high as 18, for a quick run past the 16#.
Last time to track, (wastegate issues), boost controller could not keep boost at that level, so datalogs show ECU being as high as 21% LEAN, with 4* of knock retard, and 22.5# of boost, TWICE, lol.
It, IMHO, should have done some damage, yet somehow didn't...
I've also, by accident, made 14# of boost, with 35, YES THIRTY FIVE degrees of timing...Not 1 degree of knock....Car actually SCREAMED and ran GREAT! But I don't suggest doing it.
E-85 is actually a bit TOO forgiving, to be quite honest.
BUT, that isn't a freebie by any stretch. You need to do some reading about the extra fueling capacity you'll absolutely NEED to run E-85 without headaches.
My car is tuned for 16# of boost, but has been fine as high as 18, for a quick run past the 16#.
Last time to track, (wastegate issues), boost controller could not keep boost at that level, so datalogs show ECU being as high as 21% LEAN, with 4* of knock retard, and 22.5# of boost, TWICE, lol.
It, IMHO, should have done some damage, yet somehow didn't...
I've also, by accident, made 14# of boost, with 35, YES THIRTY FIVE degrees of timing...Not 1 degree of knock....Car actually SCREAMED and ran GREAT! But I don't suggest doing it.
E-85 is actually a bit TOO forgiving, to be quite honest.
I'd look into flex fuel. 50% ethanol is capable of reaching your goals and doesn't require as much fuel system. You also don't have to deal with general ethanol fuel problems you see at higher blends. Water meth and E50ish will go a long way.
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
Likes: 46
From: Dayton, OH
It sounds like flex fuel is worth the effort. Now I need to figure out what I need to make it happen.
ID 1300's to support 900 to 1,000 WHP on corn? How much fuel pump?
I got started today. Holley has their fuel rails on sale. Early Christmas present to myself.
ID 1300's to support 900 to 1,000 WHP on corn? How much fuel pump?
I got started today. Holley has their fuel rails on sale. Early Christmas present to myself.
This seems to be a nice calculator:
https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
Friend of mine used this $25 service from Motion Raceworks:
https://www.motionraceworks.com/page...m-fuel-systems
You fill out a spec sheet, telling them what you need/what you already have, what your goal is, etc., and they basically give you a parts list. He was very happy with the service. He didn't buy everything from them, but it's amazing how much BIGGER everything he has (fuel related), compared to mine. My car runs little baby -8 feed line...His (with a 1000whp goal), is -12...
https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
Friend of mine used this $25 service from Motion Raceworks:
https://www.motionraceworks.com/page...m-fuel-systems
You fill out a spec sheet, telling them what you need/what you already have, what your goal is, etc., and they basically give you a parts list. He was very happy with the service. He didn't buy everything from them, but it's amazing how much BIGGER everything he has (fuel related), compared to mine. My car runs little baby -8 feed line...His (with a 1000whp goal), is -12...
I know a bunch of guys been high 4's on E85, call it 7.70 in the 1/4.
I have my car all plumbed for E85, but I'm going to add a flex fuel sensor too in 2021 since I don't live by a ton of pumps.
I have my car all plumbed for E85, but I'm going to add a flex fuel sensor too in 2021 since I don't live by a ton of pumps.
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This seems to be a nice calculator:
https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
Friend of mine used this $25 service from Motion Raceworks:
https://www.motionraceworks.com/page...m-fuel-systems
You fill out a spec sheet, telling them what you need/what you already have, what your goal is, etc., and they basically give you a parts list. He was very happy with the service. He didn't buy everything from them, but it's amazing how much BIGGER everything he has (fuel related), compared to mine. My car runs little baby -8 feed line...His (with a 1000whp goal), is -12...
https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
Friend of mine used this $25 service from Motion Raceworks:
https://www.motionraceworks.com/page...m-fuel-systems
You fill out a spec sheet, telling them what you need/what you already have, what your goal is, etc., and they basically give you a parts list. He was very happy with the service. He didn't buy everything from them, but it's amazing how much BIGGER everything he has (fuel related), compared to mine. My car runs little baby -8 feed line...His (with a 1000whp goal), is -12...
My "goal" was 500ish to the tires, now that it has easily made a bit more....well, who knows what the goal is now.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Lots of good info here already. The answer is definitely yes. Your will be able to make more power safer and with a wider window. Any little bit of detonation with those stock parts and bye bye. The risk of that with E85 or the other blends mentioned here is greatly reduced.
For everyone talking about flex fuel. Please be careful! I have it on my car set up via the Holley Dominator but as soon as Los Vasquez saw it he asked if I really ever used it, and after I answered no, he turned it off. He absolutely saved my motor in doing so! I started having issues with my sensor reading weird and realized that if we had left it active, it would have been pulling 30% fuel for small increments when the sensor read lower. I absolutely was having issues but my point is...they can happen and I don't care to have the fueling for my motor totally based on something like that. I would enable if you know you're going on a road trip or will need it, but if not, turn off. Just my $.02 and something to keep in mind.
For everyone talking about flex fuel. Please be careful! I have it on my car set up via the Holley Dominator but as soon as Los Vasquez saw it he asked if I really ever used it, and after I answered no, he turned it off. He absolutely saved my motor in doing so! I started having issues with my sensor reading weird and realized that if we had left it active, it would have been pulling 30% fuel for small increments when the sensor read lower. I absolutely was having issues but my point is...they can happen and I don't care to have the fueling for my motor totally based on something like that. I would enable if you know you're going on a road trip or will need it, but if not, turn off. Just my $.02 and something to keep in mind.
I have no experience using the factory ECU and flex fuel. But there isn't an issue with worrying about sensor malfunction on with aftermarket ECU's if setup properly.
The problem I have with not running a sensor is the ethanol content changes all the time here. One day you have 90% ethanol... Another day you'll have 70%... and everything in between. I don't make timing changes based on my ethanol % and if the mixtures vary much it is easily seen on the WB02. I have AFR safeties in place, so if the AFR is .5 points leaner than my commanded AFR, it cuts ignition. Then we have the fuel correction feature active as well. I will say you want a constant supply of fuel going through the sensor. Don't put it on a return. I fill a surge tank with a low pressure pump and have my sensor there.
The problem I have with not running a sensor is the ethanol content changes all the time here. One day you have 90% ethanol... Another day you'll have 70%... and everything in between. I don't make timing changes based on my ethanol % and if the mixtures vary much it is easily seen on the WB02. I have AFR safeties in place, so if the AFR is .5 points leaner than my commanded AFR, it cuts ignition. Then we have the fuel correction feature active as well. I will say you want a constant supply of fuel going through the sensor. Don't put it on a return. I fill a surge tank with a low pressure pump and have my sensor there.
Not debating, but I dont really understand why some say to NOT put the sensor in the return? I've seen people saying it could get air bound, which really makes no sense to me. If the sensor gets air, then aren't your rails also getting it? I datalog every pass, and ethanol content has never changed more than about 1% from burnout to letting off at the end of a run.
I use a factory P01 ECU with a 2 bar/flex fuel operating system. I use the flex fuel setup specifically in case I am somewhere that doesnt have E85 available, so that I could simply fill up with 93 unleaded, and drive it on home. I add 5 degrees or more additional timing for 80% or higher content. I have my ethanol content default setting at 10%, so if the sensor should fail, the timing is the same as if using gasoline...so it would lean out, but also turn timing way down...hopefully preventing any drama.
I havent had any ethanol related issues yet, but as soon as my crossover is back on, and my new injectors back in, I plan to run straight 93 unleaded, and 8# or less for my little rides throughout the winter...
I use a factory P01 ECU with a 2 bar/flex fuel operating system. I use the flex fuel setup specifically in case I am somewhere that doesnt have E85 available, so that I could simply fill up with 93 unleaded, and drive it on home. I add 5 degrees or more additional timing for 80% or higher content. I have my ethanol content default setting at 10%, so if the sensor should fail, the timing is the same as if using gasoline...so it would lean out, but also turn timing way down...hopefully preventing any drama.
I havent had any ethanol related issues yet, but as soon as my crossover is back on, and my new injectors back in, I plan to run straight 93 unleaded, and 8# or less for my little rides throughout the winter...
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 230
Likes: 73
From: south florida
if you max out fuel pump and pressure drops below where the fuel pressure regulator is set at, its just a dead head system at that point. anything past the regulator will not be flowing, anything before theres still fuel, just pressure drops
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 478
Yeah, except -12AN on good fuel pressure is enough fuel flow for ~4,000 HP on E85.
I guess if a well known business is going to spec a fuel system, they are definitely not going to err on the smaller side...especially if they sell all the items spec'd out.
Going strictly by memory, so may be wrong on a thing or two, but know it's close... I believe he has dual -10 into and out of dual 4303 pumps, then into a -12 single, up to the rails, where it is split into dual -8, then dual dual -8 out to regulator, to -10 return. He is happy, and knows he should never have a fuel problem, so I guess that's all that matters.
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 230
Likes: 73
From: south florida
Playing Devil's advocate, if you have no flow beyond the regulator, than it sure seems the issue would not be the sensor location, but the fuel delivery issue causing any problems. Assuming your tune adds timing in relation to ethanol content, and the fuel system cant even supply enough fuel to need a return, wouldnt that be more of a concern ? Wouldnt the tune subtract the added timing if the sensor, post-regulator, defaulted to lower ethanol content? Like I said above, mine has never changed more than 1% on a quarter mile run, and I doubt the ECU could even make a change that made any difference in that scenario. Maybe I am looking at it all wrong, I dont know.
Agree, and again, that was Motion Raceworks recommendation to him, not mine, lol.
I guess if a well known business is going to spec a fuel system, they are definitely not going to err on the smaller side...especially if they sell all the items spec'd out.
Going strictly by memory, so may be wrong on a thing or two, but know it's close... I believe he has dual -10 into and out of dual 4303 pumps, then into a -12 single, up to the rails, where it is split into dual -8, then dual dual -8 out to regulator, to -10 return. He is happy, and knows he should never have a fuel problem, so I guess that's all that matters.
Agree, and again, that was Motion Raceworks recommendation to him, not mine, lol.
I guess if a well known business is going to spec a fuel system, they are definitely not going to err on the smaller side...especially if they sell all the items spec'd out.
Going strictly by memory, so may be wrong on a thing or two, but know it's close... I believe he has dual -10 into and out of dual 4303 pumps, then into a -12 single, up to the rails, where it is split into dual -8, then dual dual -8 out to regulator, to -10 return. He is happy, and knows he should never have a fuel problem, so I guess that's all that matters.
ethanol will add timing as well as the extra fuel needed, over gas, to reach your targeted lamda, so it would also pull fuel if it thinks it suddenly went from 80% E to 10%
it depends on your tune, how often the ethanol sensor polls the %. i believe most stock tunes only poll when it sees X amount fuel level change so it may be a moot point anyway. on my e38 the change in level is just set to 0 and it polls constantly.
to add to the discussion...
i run a magnafuel 4303 as a secondary to the stock flex fuel pump on my yukon. 1200cc fic injectors. stock bucket is untouched, the 4303 is sumped in the bottom of the tank. stock line has the flex sensor, check valve, and goes into 1 side of a Y, 4303 has pre/post filters, check valve into the other side of the Y, 10an up to the rails where it splits to 8an each side, with a 8an return after the regulator.
running about 20psi and 14 degrees of timing, 60psi base, with zero signs of knock on pump e85. idc is getting up there and both (injectors and pump) will need to be replaced pretty soon