Water Injection Question
03-21-2021, 02:09 AM
#21
I don't agree. The typical volumes sprayed do VERY little for the air charge temp's as a whole. This is easily seen by the HP numbers basically doing nothing with the W/M on/OFF on the dyno.
Typical volume kits do most of their work in the cylinder, pulling heat and slowing the flame front down to help prevent detonation. This is why you see little to no performance gain w/ typical W/M alone. It's very similar to running higher octane fuel. Dumping some 110 in your tank isn't going to do squat for ya performance wise if you don't up the boost/timing to go along with it. So IMO, it's pretty darned important to at least try to get the distribution even. And the factory intakes are **** poor at that job.
Ideally you'd want a "wet flow" single plane carb style intake for distribution. And to spray a mega ton of straight meth in the turbo inlets. If enough volume was sprayed, you could achieve an intercooler like effect, up the turbo efficiency, and a large octane boost. It would also be finicky to tune and a fire hazard. But it has been done with great success.
Now I'm not saying it won't "work" With a factory intake. That's how I ran it as well. Just have to realize the limitations and read the plugs. Also helped that I had an ECU that could add or subtract fuel to cylinders individually.
Typical volume kits do most of their work in the cylinder, pulling heat and slowing the flame front down to help prevent detonation. This is why you see little to no performance gain w/ typical W/M alone. It's very similar to running higher octane fuel. Dumping some 110 in your tank isn't going to do squat for ya performance wise if you don't up the boost/timing to go along with it. So IMO, it's pretty darned important to at least try to get the distribution even. And the factory intakes are **** poor at that job.
Ideally you'd want a "wet flow" single plane carb style intake for distribution. And to spray a mega ton of straight meth in the turbo inlets. If enough volume was sprayed, you could achieve an intercooler like effect, up the turbo efficiency, and a large octane boost. It would also be finicky to tune and a fire hazard. But it has been done with great success.
Now I'm not saying it won't "work" With a factory intake. That's how I ran it as well. Just have to realize the limitations and read the plugs. Also helped that I had an ECU that could add or subtract fuel to cylinders individually.
03-21-2021, 09:40 AM
#22
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As far as spraying further before the intake right after the intercooler I was curious about atomization and possibly better cooling/distribution. I run ethanol and have never used water/meth. I'm at about 20 psi on my 377 now with the procharger at max impeller speed. IAT still isn't an issue, but I haven't run it in hot temps yet at this boost level.
03-23-2021, 08:14 PM
#23
As far as spraying further before the intake right after the intercooler I was curious about atomization and possibly better cooling/distribution. I run ethanol and have never used water/meth. I'm at about 20 psi on my 377 now with the procharger at max impeller speed. IAT still isn't an issue, but I haven't run it in hot temps yet at this boost level.
I've had mine located in 3 different spots just do to cold side reconfiguration. I can't say there was ever any difference in the amount of temp it dropped. Its' always good for about 30 degrees F of cooling. But there did seem to be sort of a sweet spot for getting it all atomized before it passed the blade in the throttle body. Because any sort of surface changes or couplings seem to make it re condensate at those locations. So a good length of smooth pipe with no couplers with a max of 18" from the throttle body, or right at the TB positioned on the top. But all three locations still produced streaks of blue dye through the intake manifold where clearly some cylinders where pulling actual liquid drops in and some had just a light covering of dye everywhere, which I took as an indication of fully atomized spray.
Streaking and droplets are also probably indicative of too big of a nozzle but that was the amount I needed to get any sort of decent timing of 90 octane.
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BCNUL8R (03-24-2021)
03-23-2021, 09:27 PM
#24
Staging Lane
I’m working on a blow thru carb set-up now trying to figure where to spray 50/50 in. No intercooler maybe directly at turbo fins or into charge pipe 18’’ from carb? Going to start with 5gph nozzle.
03-23-2021, 10:51 PM
#25
You don't want water/meth going through the carb according to the manufacturers. Any aluminum it touches looses it's polish pretty quick and starts corroding. You want to inject it below the carb either with a spacer plate that has nozzle mounts or by tapping the intake manifold. From what I've read about most people run two smaller nozzles instead of one large. Mostly because the manifolds are usually divided.
03-23-2021, 11:01 PM
#26
Staging Lane
Good to know, I might do better tapping the intake since I have a nitrous plate already. Would hate to mess up a brand new Pro Systems 750. Easier to plumb intake than wrecking turbo & carb!
03-24-2021, 07:55 AM
#27
Charge temps pre cylinder vary wildly. A pure water mix will show little difference, even though it will make a HUGE change in cylinder temps. On the other end of the spectrum, pure meth will show an enormous pre cylinder difference, but will not absorb as much heat as water. Either way, I personally only use secondary injection at the drag strip on higher boost settings. Low boost off the wastegate on 93 octane is how I ride on the street.
So ideally to build the most effecient setup you'd spray all pre turbo. Assuming 350* inlet temps. You'd want to calculate enough water volume to drop charge temps down to around 212* with water, then calculate the amount of meth needed to drop 212* to 150*. Then you'd have an efficient water/meth kit. No one really does this.
I'd calculate what my charge temps will be based on boost/power levels. The at least spray a small amount of washer fluid pre turbo. And 100% meth post turbo.
03-24-2021, 09:04 PM
#29
Staging Lane
I only want spray 50/50 in front of whee when I’m over 10# not straight meth. Besides Force Fed tells me I gotta calculate it out so I’m headed back to school😂
03-25-2021, 12:02 AM
#30
It literally hit the point it's capable of lighting on fire at 50%. I know it sounds pedantic but 50% or 51% might as well be 100% as far as the fire problem goes. If you're at all worried about it that's the line you can't cross with it.
03-25-2021, 06:55 AM
#31
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At the minimum if you are over 50% you should treat it like you would any fuel source and use something better than plastic push connect line as well as shielded from hot parts like exhaust.
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ddnspider (03-25-2021)
03-25-2021, 07:31 AM
#32
@AwesomeAuto has made some great posts as a chemical engineer about how the water in water/meth had more of an impact on keeping the motor together than the methanol. And you want it to vaporize at or near the chamber as that's when the most heat will be pulled due to the phase change.
03-25-2021, 07:57 AM
#33
Staging Lane
@AwesomeAuto has made some great posts as a chemical engineer about how the water in water/meth had more of an impact on keeping the motor together than the methanol. And you want it to vaporize at or near the chamber as that's when the most heat will be pulled due to the phase change.
03-25-2021, 08:30 AM
#34
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@AwesomeAuto has made some great posts as a chemical engineer about how the water in water/meth had more of an impact on keeping the motor together than the methanol. And you want it to vaporize at or near the chamber as that's when the most heat will be pulled due to the phase change.
03-25-2021, 12:15 PM
#35
Those interested can do a search for joenova (his old username) and meth and will likely come across a heated debate on the topic with additional information from him. I would rather not rehash old battles so i'm not going to link it. I will link this post though that is the tip of the iceberg.
All those saying that pure meth is the only way to go are EXTREMELY foolish.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
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BCNUL8R (03-25-2021)
03-25-2021, 12:33 PM
#37
The increase in meth % is giving you higher octane letting you run more boost/timing. The forged stuff can handle the increase in combustion temp/pressures. The forged stuff also isn't factory so it has (hopefully) rings gapped to the max power you plan to run. If you were forged and running race gas or E85, you already have all the octane you need (within reason).
03-25-2021, 02:57 PM
#39
You'll always see more power with large amounts of meth. Its no different than switching to E85 and picking up 10% power on fuel alone. That doesn't mean meth pulls more heat at like volumes than water. Pulling heat from the CC isn't going to give you any performance alone. You'd need to adjust the tune for that. The big issue with water is you are extremely limited volume wise due to ignition issues. With methanol there is no real limit.
03-25-2021, 04:13 PM
#40
@AwesomeAuto has made some great posts as a chemical engineer about how the water in water/meth had more of an impact on keeping the motor together than the methanol. And you want it to vaporize at or near the chamber as that's when the most heat will be pulled due to the phase change.