Head selection for a 402 with LSA
After doing some online shopping it looks like of the acceptable USA made aftermarket head castings mentioned in this thread (I'm looking at cathedral port) the TFS as cast assembled by BTR with their spring kit are the most budget friendly. I think that is probably the route I will go they also have powdered metal guides and even though they have changed the valve angle they should work fine with my ws6store "max effort" stock style rockers correct?
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From: Mefis
Find you a set of stock LS3 heads. Mill them a little, use a thinner head gasket, do a valve job if they're high mile. Shoot for 10.5 static CR. BTR Platinum duals are my go-to spring. Use at least 1.875" primary long tubes. 2" would be better. Find a cam around 226/240 on a 114-116 LSA with low .600's lift. Use enough advance to see about an 8:1 DCR. Catty port heads won't play nice with an LSA blower without adaptors. This doesn't need to be complicated.
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From: Mefis
Find you a set of stock LS3 heads. Mill them a little, use a thinner head gasket, do a valve job if they're high mile. Shoot for 10.5 static CR. BTR Platinum duals are my go-to spring. Use at least 1.875" primary long tubes. 2" would be better. Find a cam around 226/240 on a 114-116 LSA with low .600's lift. Use enough advance to see about an 8:1 DCR. Catty port heads won't play nice with an LSA blower without adaptors. This doesn't need to be complicated.
You'll see that the cam I'd like to use us right in line with what you've suggested.
I'm not trying to make it complicated, just trying to figure out if a 279cc intake port is too big for a 402.
You're concerned that the big intake ports will kill low end grunt? For your build, I wouldn't go out of my way to source big intake ports, but I wouldn't shy away from them if that's what I was able to find at a reasonable price. I wouldn't pay a premium for big port heads either.
If you spin an LSA blower fast enough to see 10psi on a 402 with good bits upstream of the blower and good bits downstream of it, low end power will be there in spades. Even with big port heads. That's assuming you don't over cam it. Have the cam you're considering ground on a 115LSA. That gets rid of 4* of overlap and shouldn't hurt power on bottom or top. It will drive nicer.
Two other things you can do to increase power without much if any down side (besides cost):
Use a bigger throttle body. With the amount of air you'll be moving, a 90mm throttle body is a restriction. You may have to do a little work on the blower snout to fit it, but it will be worth it.
Also, consider a flex fuel setup. E85 and PD blowers are a match made in heaven. You get more octane and also a cooling effect from the E. Meth isn't nearly as effective on a PD blower vs a centrifugal or turbo setup. You do get the added octane, but there's not much cooling of the intake charge when you introduce the meth pre blower.
If you spin an LSA blower fast enough to see 10psi on a 402 with good bits upstream of the blower and good bits downstream of it, low end power will be there in spades. Even with big port heads. That's assuming you don't over cam it. Have the cam you're considering ground on a 115LSA. That gets rid of 4* of overlap and shouldn't hurt power on bottom or top. It will drive nicer.
Two other things you can do to increase power without much if any down side (besides cost):
Use a bigger throttle body. With the amount of air you'll be moving, a 90mm throttle body is a restriction. You may have to do a little work on the blower snout to fit it, but it will be worth it.
Also, consider a flex fuel setup. E85 and PD blowers are a match made in heaven. You get more octane and also a cooling effect from the E. Meth isn't nearly as effective on a PD blower vs a centrifugal or turbo setup. You do get the added octane, but there's not much cooling of the intake charge when you introduce the meth pre blower.
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From: Mefis
You're concerned that the big intake ports will kill low end grunt? For your build, I wouldn't go out of my way to source big intake ports, but I wouldn't shy away from them if that's what I was able to find at a reasonable price. I wouldn't pay a premium for big port heads either.
If you spin an LSA blower fast enough to see 10psi on a 402 with good bits upstream of the blower and good bits downstream of it, low end power will be there in spades. Even with big port heads. That's assuming you don't over cam it. Have the cam you're considering ground on a 115LSA. That gets rid of 4* of overlap and shouldn't hurt power on bottom or top. It will drive nicer.
Two other things you can do to increase power without much if any down side (besides cost):
Use a bigger throttle body. With the amount of air you'll be moving, a 90mm throttle body is a restriction. You may have to do a little work on the blower snout to fit it, but it will be worth it.
Also, consider a flex fuel setup. E85 and PD blowers are a match made in heaven. You get more octane and also a cooling effect from the E. Meth isn't nearly as effective on a PD blower vs a centrifugal or turbo setup. You do get the added octane, but there's not much cooling of the intake charge when you introduce the meth pre blower.
If you spin an LSA blower fast enough to see 10psi on a 402 with good bits upstream of the blower and good bits downstream of it, low end power will be there in spades. Even with big port heads. That's assuming you don't over cam it. Have the cam you're considering ground on a 115LSA. That gets rid of 4* of overlap and shouldn't hurt power on bottom or top. It will drive nicer.
Two other things you can do to increase power without much if any down side (besides cost):
Use a bigger throttle body. With the amount of air you'll be moving, a 90mm throttle body is a restriction. You may have to do a little work on the blower snout to fit it, but it will be worth it.
Also, consider a flex fuel setup. E85 and PD blowers are a match made in heaven. You get more octane and also a cooling effect from the E. Meth isn't nearly as effective on a PD blower vs a centrifugal or turbo setup. You do get the added octane, but there's not much cooling of the intake charge when you introduce the meth pre blower.
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I saw that add and Im pretty sure he didnt tally all the numbers correctly even with all the upgrades he ordered (hollow stem intake valves, additional hand finishing, premium Manley Nextek valve springs, cc and milling etc.)
Anyway, my 227's can be had in the low 3K range if you opt for the solid stem valves and my .640 lift standard dual spring package (PAC spring btw)
That's a touch more than out of the box production heads (AFR, TFS, Brodix etc.) and the fit and finish of my heads and attention to detail are worth every penny of that small difference.
Probably still a little more than you wanted to spend but if your ever going to stretch the budget a little, buying premium cylinder heads is where you want to put that money
They are the doorway in and the doorway out of every combustion event. With an average set of heads you can get everything else right and still have only mediocre results as you have limited your potential with the less efficient heads
On the other hand a premium set of heads even with the supporting mods not so great will still make above average power. Get the whole combo right and you're in the top 5% of your class
You should be looking at my new 243 heads for that 402.....360 CFM thru a medium sized cathedral runner is insanely efficient. That combo would be super sharp in response and still make BIG power with that much airflow.
That's more air than ported LS3 OEM castings can deliver in a much smaller intake runner. Check out this thread from a year or so ago highlighting the 227 and the 243 heads
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...e=pocket_saves
If you want to chat about this a bit more feel free to reach out
661-714-1317
Regards,
Tony
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Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; Apr 30, 2024 at 04:18 AM.
Boost is wonderful. I made 1000 rwhp with stock unported heads with no heat or iat issues. E85 and meth injection does wonders also. Would I prefer better heads absolutely, but with boost and e85 amazing things can be done on a budget. I do prefer cathedral ports as well but with his LSA blower I’d recommend square port heads. LSA heads are stronger but have a wing in the intake port that ls3 heads do not have.
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Was in the same boat sticking a motor together and after doing tons of research as John mentioned, go big $ or don't even waste it. Mast Black Label are probably the best you can get, at least last time I looked and see significant gains. Had a guy throw on TFS with a 418 build and didn't pick up the power that was hoped. I did some CNC LS3 heads (from TSP) and gain I would say is negligible.
On my car with a stock bottom 6.2 and the CNC heads, E85 and BTR Stage 3 PDS cam I made 711whp. Honestly chalk up most of the power to the fact the interchiller had intake temps around freezing, car did that on 9PSI I suspect from the dense air charge it was getting.
On my car with a stock bottom 6.2 and the CNC heads, E85 and BTR Stage 3 PDS cam I made 711whp. Honestly chalk up most of the power to the fact the interchiller had intake temps around freezing, car did that on 9PSI I suspect from the dense air charge it was getting.
If I were to ping everyone I know know in the LS boosted universe and asked them to vote in an anonymous survey, I think the results would look something like this, most preferred to least:
Mast
Brodix
TFS
AFR
TSP
Frankenstein M311 might get votes too. I think a few companies sell the same casting but with proprietary porting (TKM).
TFS are notably cheaper than Mast.
Mast
Brodix
TFS
AFR
TSP
Frankenstein M311 might get votes too. I think a few companies sell the same casting but with proprietary porting (TKM).
TFS are notably cheaper than Mast.
Yeah Capizzi swapped on some Mast heads on his turbo LC9 combo in his street car and it made more power. He and Brian Tooley both have said in interviews that the TFS 220s as cast don't pick up much over 243/799s and that the thicker deck is where their value is.
I can't remember where I saw it, but I've seen a test where they changed heads and picked up a bunch, but they also were spinning the blower faster.
When I had the D1x and wanted more power I considered buying heads at that time and realized I could buy an F1a-94 and sell my D1x for less dollars invested than a good set of heads. So, pick up 20 rwhp with heads or pick up 200 rwhp for the same amount of dollars invested? I went with the bigger blower.
Now moving onto the F1x and more cubic inches it seems like it's finally time to get something better than unported stock castings :-)
As for the OP I've not experienced it myself, but I've read multiple people have had tuning issues using cathedral ports with adapters to run an LSA. I would highly advise against using cathedral ports on this combo and go with square ports to avoid the use of adapters and risk driveability tune issues.
If you are only going to run 10psi and not push it hard.... literally just get some L92 or LS3 heads and change out the springs with a basic performance valve job. If you plan to push it harder I would look into the better grade aluminum rotocast LSA/LS9 heads. If you like to overbuild your setup for future growth (you will turn it up hahahaha) then get the better heads or something aftermarket like Tony has or MAST LS3 heads, TFS, etc which are total overkill unless you are really trying to make some power. Getting the blower ported will be more cost effective to make power than upgrading the heads.
I've got a set of LSA heads with all the goodies if interested:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/market/1971388
We have had a number of valves drop with TSP/PRC heads and stay far far away from them. Luckily the engines just needed a piston replaced but still a huge PITA and they don't pay for labor and it is just such a hassle to deal with them.
I like BTR cams.... Spintron tested and constant R&D on them with newer updated versions being worked on all the time. You could also contact Cammotion and tell them what you want.... (may a less agressive idle... or more mid range than top end etc).
I've got a set of LSA heads with all the goodies if interested:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/market/1971388
We have had a number of valves drop with TSP/PRC heads and stay far far away from them. Luckily the engines just needed a piston replaced but still a huge PITA and they don't pay for labor and it is just such a hassle to deal with them.
I like BTR cams.... Spintron tested and constant R&D on them with newer updated versions being worked on all the time. You could also contact Cammotion and tell them what you want.... (may a less agressive idle... or more mid range than top end etc).
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I had you in mind when I was thinking about the cam and what you had said about it being not quite big enough in your opinion.
The dilemma I have is that I need a set of heads, so looking at the available rectangular port options, new LS9s are available assembled for a little less than $700 each, eBay shows 821 and 823 heads going for roughly 400-425 each, but they'll have the heavy valves. The CNC LS9s are $999 each. A valve jobbed rectangular port would be another option too, with LS3 intake valves.
At that point the TSP brawler LS3s look appealing for $1837 for the pair.
The dilemma I have is that I need a set of heads, so looking at the available rectangular port options, new LS9s are available assembled for a little less than $700 each, eBay shows 821 and 823 heads going for roughly 400-425 each, but they'll have the heavy valves. The CNC LS9s are $999 each. A valve jobbed rectangular port would be another option too, with LS3 intake valves.
At that point the TSP brawler LS3s look appealing for $1837 for the pair.
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From: Mefis
I'm leaning towards the lighter intake valves of the CNC ported LS9s. I have some Pac 1219s already, and just swap springs.
On The Tree
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How much are the cnc ls9’s? I’m looking at the cnc ls3 with inconel exhaust valves.
https://www.lsxceleration.com/chevro...lves-19301699/
https://www.lsxceleration.com/chevro...lves-19301699/
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Mefis
How much are the cnc ls9’s? I’m looking at the cnc ls3 with inconel exhaust valves.
https://www.lsxceleration.com/chevro...lves-19301699/
https://www.lsxceleration.com/chevro...lves-19301699/