Now that Ive decided on ATI.. which one?
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From: Germantown, MD
I just don't see a properly setup STS beating out a properly setup ATI car. The STS will have much more torque down low, but the Centri should pull more horsepower at it's peak. As for SOTP reaction, that's all relative. Turbos and Blowers will have very different feels. A low boost blower just feels like a really strong engine. A turbo, low boost or not feels disconnected and totally seperate from the engine. Not nearly as linear. Having gone from 5# to 10+#s i can tell you there is a world of difference on these ATI cars. But let's get some race footage up. That's fun to watch regardless of which setup is better. 
Unfortunately the only local 10+ turbo/M6 car in my area that i know of is Mighty Mouse. So I'm not proving my point anytime soon.
Mike
Unfortunately the only local 10+ turbo/M6 car in my area that i know of is Mighty Mouse. So I'm not proving my point anytime soon.
Mike
Originally Posted by Blackbird
don't know where you are shopping Kyle 
I put mine together with a p1 not an f1 for $2000 didn't do an IC but lets add $700 for IC and tubing, clamps, connectors and it's still under 3k.
I am of course extremely patient and waited around for deals to piece it all together.
My buddy just used a MMS pulley instead of the SD and put his together with intercoolers for $2K
Just depends how badly you want to save the $$$ and of course your power goals. Kyles is much higher than mine or my friends. 550rwhp is good enough for us.
I put mine together with a p1 not an f1 for $2000 didn't do an IC but lets add $700 for IC and tubing, clamps, connectors and it's still under 3k.
I am of course extremely patient and waited around for deals to piece it all together.
My buddy just used a MMS pulley instead of the SD and put his together with intercoolers for $2K
Just depends how badly you want to save the $$$ and of course your power goals. Kyles is much higher than mine or my friends. 550rwhp is good enough for us.
Yeah the big$$$ i was talking about was all new stuff... ill break it down.
F1 head unit $2300
Steel J-Bracket $200
SDCE 8 rib setup $700
FMIC, all PIPing, HTS couplers,T-bolts and Bypass/BOV $1200
Misc stuff from ATI to get the kit to work $200
Total $4600..... basicly what i paid for my base ATI kit to start with.... what a waste....i wish i knew then what i know now....
Kyle
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From: Bellevue, Wa
hehehe I hear ya Mike.
well I may be convinced to do 10psi vs 10psi
my buddy has a nice heads/cam/ati setup pumping out 560/540 on 10psi - D1
my internals are still stock so I am on the fence whether I will crank it up to 10.
probably will but I will take baby steps to get there.
well I may be convinced to do 10psi vs 10psi
my buddy has a nice heads/cam/ati setup pumping out 560/540 on 10psi - D1
my internals are still stock so I am on the fence whether I will crank it up to 10.
probably will but I will take baby steps to get there.
Just did all stock motor car, flp headers with their cheesy y pipe, small 226 cam, and an ATI at 8 psi. Made 545 at 6400 all the way to 6900 where I let off. 500 rwtq from 4700-5300
You wants none with the STS if both are at 12 psi
Running the 4.5 blower pulley, need to pulley it up and lose some torque
You wants none with the STS if both are at 12 psi
Running the 4.5 blower pulley, need to pulley it up and lose some torque
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From: Bellevue, Wa
I dunnnoooo you been reading pure evil's posts? over 600 at 10psi, he does have heads though.
we shall see. car is on hold until the house is done. hopefully Jan I will finally have some numbers and real world comparo's. Right now I must admit I am going off of other local STS cars results.
we shall see. car is on hold until the house is done. hopefully Jan I will finally have some numbers and real world comparo's. Right now I must admit I am going off of other local STS cars results.
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From: league city,tx
I would think that you probably couldn't go wrong with either selection but if you plan on eventually modifying your ride then go with the D1SC because you can always plan your mods around it and the power level that it will provide over the P1SC-1...
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From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Originally Posted by Blackbird
10-4 bush
I will see what I can do to get a vid of my car at 5psi vs an ati car at 7psi.
Until then all I can tell you is there are few folks up here with ATI cars that ride in the STS cars and can only say WOW that car will kill mine. Wish these had come out before I bought my ATI.
I will see what I can do to get a vid of my car at 5psi vs an ati car at 7psi.
Until then all I can tell you is there are few folks up here with ATI cars that ride in the STS cars and can only say WOW that car will kill mine. Wish these had come out before I bought my ATI.
I have a ATI car for all you STS lovers
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Fanatic
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From: Germantown, MD
Originally Posted by frcefed98
ME TOO! oh wait I like the STS turbo kit too
I think if SDCE were smart they would become a sponcer, create a true "tuner kit" that is what Kyle described. But just like the current tuner kit, make the D1 standard and the F1 optional to lower costs. I'd also make the FMIC optional as a lot of people are not going to want to hack up their bumper and bumper support, making the ATI twins a better choice for them. The F1 kit should run with the big turbo kits, and the D1 will give you the range to stay streetable or get aggressive.
STS is new and it will be interesting to see how far they can be pushed. But ATI is battle proven and we ain't goin no where. Sounds like next season is gonna be a fun one.
Mike
Originally Posted by buschman
Oh trust me, I like the STS system too. STS went outside the box to bring us something at a lower cost and will only help strengthen the FI/LS1 world. By making it more affordable and attracting a larger base of FI fans. But just cause it's a turbo does not mean it's a TTi race kit. I honestly think that the SDCE ATI kit is easier to install, easier to tune, and flat out faster than the STS kit.
I think if SDCE were smart they would become a sponcer, create a true "tuner kit" that is what Kyle described. But just like the current tuner kit, make the D1 standard and the F1 optional to lower costs. I'd also make the FMIC optional as a lot of people are not going to want to hack up their bumper and bumper support, making the ATI twins a better choice for them. The F1 kit should run with the big turbo kits, and the D1 will give you the range to stay streetable or get aggressive.
STS is new and it will be interesting to see how far they can be pushed. But ATI is battle proven and we ain't goin no where. Sounds like next season is gonna be a fun one.
Mike
I think if SDCE were smart they would become a sponcer, create a true "tuner kit" that is what Kyle described. But just like the current tuner kit, make the D1 standard and the F1 optional to lower costs. I'd also make the FMIC optional as a lot of people are not going to want to hack up their bumper and bumper support, making the ATI twins a better choice for them. The F1 kit should run with the big turbo kits, and the D1 will give you the range to stay streetable or get aggressive.
STS is new and it will be interesting to see how far they can be pushed. But ATI is battle proven and we ain't goin no where. Sounds like next season is gonna be a fun one.
Mike
This year is going to be fun.... maybe i can drive my car more then 4 months next year ha ha 
Kyle
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From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Originally Posted by Blackbird
p.s. I woulda gone with the STS turbo if smog is a big concern which in CA it is. You can have it off and ready for smog in under 30 minutes, go smog, come back and slap it back on in 30. plus at the same boost level it will wax the ATI any day of the week. Torque!
You cant compare how a cenr. blower makes boost to how a turbo does. Apples to ........
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From: Bellevue, Wa
No it won't
damn those physics teachers.... they lied to me!
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From: Waldwick, NJ
Originally Posted by Blackbird
ok you win, the fact that a large % of the power produced by the blower is used to spin the blower apparently has no effect on the power that makes it to the wheels which in turn effects how fast the car is.
damn those physics teachers.... they lied to me!
damn those physics teachers.... they lied to me!
I could be wrong so don't attack me if I am
It would be nice to get a stock car and test both a ATI D1SC vs a STS kit. Of course for apples to apples maybe a ATI P1SC-1 vs a base STS kit. That would be interesting.
Im decided now... going D1SC. Since Im going FMIC and a SDCE 8 rib is a good idea... I need to figure out what to order through the shop Im dealing with.
Head unit, bracket, BOV.... thats about all Id need from ATI correct? Any way to order the head unit w/o pullies? Or will I have to buy it with at least a 6 rib just to get it? Then order the FMIC, piping, ATI Dampner, injectors, pump, gauges.. etc. Should be significantly cheaper!
Im decided now... going D1SC. Since Im going FMIC and a SDCE 8 rib is a good idea... I need to figure out what to order through the shop Im dealing with.
Head unit, bracket, BOV.... thats about all Id need from ATI correct? Any way to order the head unit w/o pullies? Or will I have to buy it with at least a 6 rib just to get it? Then order the FMIC, piping, ATI Dampner, injectors, pump, gauges.. etc. Should be significantly cheaper!
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From: Bellevue, Wa
all you need is the head unit.
by a better bov for less from ebay or wherever and the bracket is part of the sd assembly. or you could buy the steel bracket for less and send it to sd for them to modify for their tensioner.
what part of norcal are you in? if your near San Jose and want/need help let me know.
my buddy and I have each put together our own frankenstien, if you will, ati systems on the cheap so I know this stuff pretty well.
by a better bov for less from ebay or wherever and the bracket is part of the sd assembly. or you could buy the steel bracket for less and send it to sd for them to modify for their tensioner.
what part of norcal are you in? if your near San Jose and want/need help let me know.
my buddy and I have each put together our own frankenstien, if you will, ati systems on the cheap so I know this stuff pretty well.
Originally Posted by Blackbird
all you need is the head unit.
by a better bov for less from ebay or wherever and the bracket is part of the sd assembly. or you could buy the steel bracket for less and send it to sd for them to modify for their tensioner.
what part of norcal are you in? if your near San Jose and want/need help let me know.
by a better bov for less from ebay or wherever and the bracket is part of the sd assembly. or you could buy the steel bracket for less and send it to sd for them to modify for their tensioner.
what part of norcal are you in? if your near San Jose and want/need help let me know.
Sooo.. order the D1SC from ATI through the shop. Get the SDCE 8 rib setup that will come with mounting brackets and belt.... the shop Im going through already has a good BOV I can use... they also have the ATI dampner on shelf Im buying... FMIC, piping, and clamps I already have a line on... injectors and pump already in line... already got gauges in line...
Guess all Ill need from there is a guage pillar..... and the crank pinning kit, get that from ATI right?
Thanks for the help.
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From: Germantown, MD
Originally Posted by Blackbird
ok you win, the fact that a large % of the power produced by the blower is used to spin the blower apparently has no effect on the power that makes it to the wheels which in turn effects how fast the car is.
damn those physics teachers.... they lied to me!
damn those physics teachers.... they lied to me!
A large percentage? Where are you getting this from? A small percentage is used to spin the blower. You can calculate that by the air and fuel used and the rwhp produced to find out what the blower is stealing off the nose. There is no doubt that turbos have less parasitic lose than blowers. But that's just one category. What about weight? Turbos have far more tubing than blowers. More weight = slower. What about heat? Hotter air means you more chance of detonation. More heat = less aggressive tune = slower. What about the tuning difficulties themselves? With a hotter intake charge you can't run as much timing and you have to run a richer Air/Fuel mixture. less timing = slower. Richer AFR = slower. The STS is mounted in the rear which means there's a lot of intake piping which means there's more volume to pressurize. More volume = slower response time = slower. What the linear nature of the blowers boost curve? In am M6 car this is a big advantage. At X RPM I am making a set amount of boost. If I shift in the high RPMs I get right back into the boost. No lag. Turbo lag = slower. Dynos are great but they aren't the end all be all. See what I’m getting at?
I'm not saying the STS is slower. But you're throwing a pretty unsubstantiated challenge out there when you make the comments like "at the same boost level it will wax the ATI any day of the week. Torque!" or "the fact that a large % of the power produced by the blower is used to spin the blower apparently has no effect on the power that makes it to the wheels which in turn effects how fast the car is." Fact is both those statements are either wrong or exaggerations. I have no problem with you having pride in your STS but let's not knock the ATI kits just cause you don't own one anymore.
Mike
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From: Bellevue, Wa
true large % is exaggerating, my bad. It is somethig like 10-15% though which is significant. turbo outlet temps are no higher than with the blower as far as my experience goes unless 10 degrees over ambient at 9psi is excessive??? well wait again I am talking about a setup with a FMIC, you are definetly correct with the base STS kit vs an intercooled ATI setup. Take away the IC's on the ATI though and the inlet temps are the same. How do I know? I ran my ATI with no intercoolers. They skyrocket just like the STS does until you kick on the alky.
as far as weight I would be willing to bet the base STS kit weighs less than an ATI kit. there is simply less to it. add up the blower, bracket, pipes, intercoolers, etc... there is alot there, vs turbo and a length of pipe that runs down the side of the car.
I owned an ati setup so you can't tell me it builds boost better, full boost by 3,300 with a turbo vs full boost by max rpm, 6000 rpm, in my case with the blower and the tq curve advantage of the turbo is significant on any dyno graph you look at.
it's a simple fact a blower takes power to make power, so at the same boost level the turbo is more efficient and will get more power to the wheels.
in any case we are beating a dead horse as this thread is just like 10 others.
you like your ati, cool. I was ehhhhh with mine and like what the STS can offer me.
I will though still stick to my guns on my statement that stock with Xpsi ATI vs stock with Xpsi STS the STS will smoke it. I have ridden in both and it's not like it's a hmmm I think it's faster, it's a whooooooooaaaaaa this IS definetly faster.
as far as weight I would be willing to bet the base STS kit weighs less than an ATI kit. there is simply less to it. add up the blower, bracket, pipes, intercoolers, etc... there is alot there, vs turbo and a length of pipe that runs down the side of the car.
I owned an ati setup so you can't tell me it builds boost better, full boost by 3,300 with a turbo vs full boost by max rpm, 6000 rpm, in my case with the blower and the tq curve advantage of the turbo is significant on any dyno graph you look at.
it's a simple fact a blower takes power to make power, so at the same boost level the turbo is more efficient and will get more power to the wheels.
in any case we are beating a dead horse as this thread is just like 10 others.
you like your ati, cool. I was ehhhhh with mine and like what the STS can offer me.
I will though still stick to my guns on my statement that stock with Xpsi ATI vs stock with Xpsi STS the STS will smoke it. I have ridden in both and it's not like it's a hmmm I think it's faster, it's a whooooooooaaaaaa this IS definetly faster.
Originally Posted by Avengeance
Actually Heath.. I called Justin, F8L, yesterday and he did actually tell me to get a hold of you.
Sooo.. order the D1SC from ATI through the shop. Get the SDCE 8 rib setup that will come with mounting brackets and belt.... the shop Im going through already has a good BOV I can use... they also have the ATI dampner on shelf Im buying... FMIC, piping, and clamps I already have a line on... injectors and pump already in line... already got gauges in line...
Guess all Ill need from there is a guage pillar..... and the crank pinning kit, get that from ATI right?
Thanks for the help.
Sooo.. order the D1SC from ATI through the shop. Get the SDCE 8 rib setup that will come with mounting brackets and belt.... the shop Im going through already has a good BOV I can use... they also have the ATI dampner on shelf Im buying... FMIC, piping, and clamps I already have a line on... injectors and pump already in line... already got gauges in line...
Guess all Ill need from there is a guage pillar..... and the crank pinning kit, get that from ATI right?
Thanks for the help.
Alright man.... first thing first.... dont order your kit from ATI... period.... you will pay $100's if not a $1k more then any ATI dealer.... Just call up SDCE and tell them what you want to do... Order the Head unit and pulley setup from them.... Order the steel bracket. You can get the threaded rod from anywhere.... ATI will charge you alot for it.. i called and asked... then finally the guy just told me the size and the thread pitch. You will need the filter system from ATI also. Me and Jeremy (FRCEFED) both used BOV's and in my opinion it wasnt working right.... so im going with a bypass. The ATI Raceready is a awsomepiece but its like $400. Give SDCE a call they will help you the best they can....
Kyle