eviltwins

I must have forgot. Semis that go for millions of miles run turbos because they are less reliable. I guess my last supercharged motor where the crank snout broke off and the #1 main bearing was worn down to the copper did that because superchargers are such a gentle power adder?

The ONLY reason Vortech and Procharger outsell turbos by a massive margin is:
A) Advertising
B) Availability (they have kits sitting on shelves waiting to go out, turbo companies don't)
C) Cost
D) Ease of install

The guy who started this thread is a perfect example of advertising doing it's job. He sees blowers on top fuel cars, his Dad tells him about how blowers rock because of all the ads vortech and procharger used to run about how turbos lag, and he sees all the ads in GMHTP, etc, etc, and assumes blowers are better. When was the last time you saw a full page PTK ad in a mag?

TACruiser

I might be selling my CAS Twin Turbo if there is any interest.. Please PM me..

buschman

I'm sorry are we talking turbo diesels, top fuel dragsters, or LS1s? I'm talking LS1s. I don't think you and I are referring to the same setups. Anything factory installed with proper supporting components is going to be more reliable than taking an N/A motor and making it into an FI motor. Not to mention that diesel engines are a completely different ball game.

Don't forget to add simplicity of design to your list of why Superchargers are still selling better than turbos. Simple designs tend to break less, tend to be easier to setup, easier to tune, easier to maintain, and have a longer life span.

Mike

Zombie

iTrader: (2)

turbo turbo he's our man, if he can't do it no one can.... GOOOOoooo TURBO!
I wanted to cheer for my team, they're better than you.

All this thread needs is a few STS haters and it will be complete

P.S. I like supercharging no matter what form it comes in, i am a turbo addict though, like progressive n2o hit that never needs a refill

sb427f-car

So, you're saying a self contained, centrefugal blower, which is basically a belt driven turbo impeller, or even one that taps into the engine's oil system is simpilar mechanically than a turbo?? I don't get how you can say that. Blowers still have cut gears in them that can fail along with bearings, where turbos you have to worry about the bearings. You still have to keep clean and cool oil to them both. Yes desiels are a completely different ball game with the biggest difference being lower EGTs with a turbocharger. It doesn't excuse the fact that they get put through their paces for many 100s of thousands of miles. You also must remember that desiel oil runs a lot dirtier than any gas motor does, especially one that is kept up with as a perf. motor would be with say synth. or even conv. oil. Easier setup on a blower, I'll give you that, mainly because routing of exhaust to get to the turbine housing can be a pain in the rear end, but the cold side still is similar, provided you are intercooled. Easier to maintain? You still have to keep the oil changed in a selfcontained ATI, and you still run the risks of cooking it since it is self contained, which means gears and/or bearings fail. This makes your longer life span argument questionable. I know someone who has probably a good 50k miles on their ATI, but I'm sure you can find someone with a turbo that has gotten that much life out of their setup too. Easier to tune? How so? Turbo, dial a wastegate up or down, hell, even while you're on the move. Blower, lay under the car, change a crank pulley, or change a blower pulley to change the overdrive. Timing and fuel maps go into the computer, which there isn't any difference between. As far as peddeling a turbo car, I can't speak, but I'd say the little lack of throttle response would be good sometimes compared to the instantanious hit of boost with a blower. Just my two cents.

mongse

iTrader: (2)

Mustang guys have figured this out. Just give the GM camp a few more years, we're slowly catching on. Two years ago, F-Body guys would've fell over themselves if someone did a twin 67mm setup. Not anymore. Also, I highlighted reason D because I think compared to Mustang owners, a lot of F-Body owners are afraid to tear into their engine bay. I think this is a big reason why the STS idea has taken off w/ the GM guys MUCH more than w/ the blue oval crowd.

I still remember the twin turbo (Turbo Tech maybe) that GMHTP did several years back. Basic kit, nothing extraordinary. What happened? They blew the car up. Now look at some of the turbo companies that have offered kits for the 4th-gen cars. The first twin turbo kit produced went under almost immediately. Then there was CAS & to a lesser extent, Q.T.P.. Look at all the companies producing kits for Mustang...PTK, TTi, HP, X2C, Cartech, etc. Exposure plays as big a part as availability. I've got a MM&FF mag next to my desk that has not only a turbo install, but a comparison between an Eaton M112, KB2.2, Vortech T-trim and HP twin turbo setup on a 32V Cobra motor. I'd rather read about that as opposed to which lid makes the most horsepower.

DamanSS

Well it seems that there are avid supporters on both sides here, so it pretty much comes down to which one you prefer. Both have their ups and downs, you can get pretty much the same performance out of both.

Oh, and by the way, i do read car mags and see cars in them with both superchargers and turbochargers, but my choice is from my dads and my actual experience, not ads. I grew up in a family with both, several supercharged cars, from suburbans, chevelles, etc.. to turbo audi, typhoon, etc.. and superchargers have always been our choice because you floor it and the power is there instantly. In the cars like they typhoon you would floor it and a couple seconds later the turbo spools up and you take off. But when you have the chance to power brake it, hold on to your pants! Now both super and turbo enthusiasts are awesome because we are all like minded in wanting our cars to be super performance beasts, its just how we get there that we differ. Its like the import and muscle car debates, neither side will ever give in, they each say theirs is the best because that is what they know and like.

DamanSS

Plus, you have to bear in mind that up till this generation, american muscle was only superchargers, you never saw a twin turbo '70 Chevelle SS, you saw a ProStreet '70 Chevelle SS with a 671 BDS roots blower sticking out the hood. Turbo only came into play when the imports all had it and someone thought it would be cool to do that to a muscle car. Now dont get me started on imports (i dont understand why you would want to start with a weak engine and make it decently fast, when you can start with a beast of an engine and make it a force worthy of bringing a extra underwear with you). Some of us still are a little weary on turbochargers, but they are definately showing awesome performance, but my heart is still with superchargers.

mongse

iTrader: (2)

There's a big difference between a turbo 4.3L V6 and a turbo 5.7L V8. I love driving SyTy's b/c they're fun vehicles. There's virtually 0 lag on a turbo V8, unless you get a....nah, won't go there.

But you're right, there are valid reasons for going with both. I had a blower car which is now twin turbo. I can't see myself going back to a supercharger for racing purposes.

DamanSS

Oh, i bet its a blast, i would love to experience one someday just to see.

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

I am surprised that noone mentioned the fact that a supercharger robs power, since it is being driven off the crank.

Andrew

buschman

You got it. My first hand info tells me they are tougher to install and setup properly. I have three friends with Turbo F-Bodies and and the first two both blew their engines up, one in less than a month. The third guy is only running 5psi. I run 11psi on a stock block and have been running as much as 8psi for over 2 years now with home tuning, no dyno/wideband tuning time.

Sure the S/C is simpilar, there's no exhaust side to route, there's no exhaust turbine, there's no wastegate. When have you heard of a S/C overboosting because the wastegate spring broke or got stuck? When have you heard a Blower car complain of cracks in the log style manifold screwing up our O2s, or our exhaust housing? When have you heard a Procharger complain of underhood temps messing up their IATs? Sure there are things in common, but you have the exhaust side to contend with that we don't have. That's what I mean by simpilar design.

Mike

sb427f-car

Think we implied it.

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

you guys are funny gettin all worked up.

its much easier to quietly research than to ask this type of question bluntly... you really wont get anywhere past 'i have a turbo so turbo's are better'.

it really depends on your driving style.. what is yours?

verbs

if you want to go faster, and have more overall power lb for lb of psi, Turbo>Blower, period.

DamanSS

Awesome, someone that seems to be neutral and want to look at the facts. What i want is reliability, power on demand and lots of it, but not too complicated to install (more complicated=more possibility of problems), and there is no such thing as too loud. So, it sounds like a supercharger is for me.

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

i agree.

eviltwins

Diesel vs. Gas, it doesn't matter. My point was if by some strech of the imagination that superchargers were a more reliable unit than turbochargers, or easier on the motors, or whatever, you would still see a lot of supercharged diesels today. Do you? No. Because turbochargers themselves are more reliable than blowers. The physical turbos themselves will last just as long or longer than a centrifugal blower will. 500 horsepower is 500 horsepower, doesn't matter what it comes from, that much power is still X amount of stress. Only difference is the blower puts a TON of stress on the front of the crank, and to make 500 RWHP from a blower you need more flywheel HP and your BSFC is always higher, because you are making more actual horsepower before it is robed away by the blower. Turbochargers are more reliable, there isn't even anything to discuss about this. I don't have to check my nonexistant blower belt to make sure it isn't fraying, I don't have to check my nonexistant blower bracket to make sure it isn't fraying, I don't have to change the case oil in my turbo head unit, and I don't have to change pulleys to turn the boost down for daily driving my car. How is that more maintainance than a blower car?

Superchargers are not outselling turbos because they are more simple. Ask any guy on the street who's been around cars for a while to name some blower companies. "Oh yeah, Vortech, ATI, Paxton, etc" Ask that same guy to name a turbo kit, I would bet you money he cannot name ONE. If I order a Vortech supercharger for my car today through vortech it will be sitting on my doorstep next week, no questions ask. No shitty excuse from PTK that "my kit is at the coaters" for 3 weeks straight, no missed phone calls, no lost components, no hacking up the car, no nothing. I'll have a vortech ready to bolt onto my car, without a doubt. Cartech and TTI have been selling mustang turbo kits for over 15 years. How long does it take to get a cartech kit? They tell you 3-4 weeks, try 2-3 months if you're lucky. Same goes for TTI, and those are the 2 companies regarded as having the best wait times for turbo kits. PTK does nice work, but they're habitually 6 months behind on their work. Don't kid yourself into believing the hype about turbochargers are harder to tune. Nothing changes between a turbo and a supercharger, all you do is adjust timing and fuel for a handful of cells in the mid range of the car where you normally see little to no boost variation in a supercharger car. My car is the first time I've tuned my own car, and it is the first time I ever touched the AEM EMS. Within 25 minutes of startup I had the car running smooth enough to drive around town, and in 2.5 hours I had the entire car running perfect. Adjust the timing for boost, get fuel to roughly where it should be, set up AEM autotune and let it tweak the fuel tables exactly where they need to be. It is not hard to tune a turbo car.

F8L Z71

Don't tell that to the late Racin Jason Betwarda or Wild Bill Devine or the Spetter family etc etc. They were making big power LONG before the Fast & The Furious came out. LOL

As for your other comment. There is nothing wrong with taking a "weak" engine and turning it into a 600rwhp monster when the vehicle it resides in only weighs 1500lbs. You do the math. LOL

Sounds lik eyour mind is already made up and was long before you made this post. Just get the blower and enjoy it. FI is a great thing in any form.

DamanSS

Thanks for the info guys, i did kinda have my mind on a supercharger, but i didnt know much about turbos and wanted to learn more. I think it would be awesome to try a turbo setup down the road when i would have my own shop to work in, but for now i think i will stay with a procharger.