rear mount vs. traditional turbo
03-23-2005, 01:21 PM
#81
There is good and bad to booth sides and we could argue it all day. I guess one goind point ot bring up is the strong following. Just look at how hard the STS setup was laughed at when it first came out. Now look at the following and the improving track times. While I will probibily continue to belive its not ment to be a all out race setup I continue to grow to like it. If that makes sense? I myself did a remoute mount on one of my 2.2l S-10 winter beaters a year back. Not a race vehicle but fun on the street non the less.
03-23-2005, 03:39 PM
#82
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Originally Posted by TurboBerserker
Humphries argument boils down to front mounts make more energy despite being less efficient. So the argument is the amount of peak power in pulse based design is higher that the peak power in a constant pressure design. True. But the power from a constant pressure system does not drop between pulses, so how does the average power compare? Bet the same argument doesn't apply there...
Has anyone measured backpressure at the intake manifold with a STS kit?
03-25-2005, 09:41 AM
#83
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I think through out all of that we missed the BIGGEST POINT OF ALL...EVERYONE basically agrees that peak HP numbers are the same, CORRECT!!?? Well then isnt this whole fight to be the fastest about who can do it with the least amount of money into it and still be doing it properly!! In that case hands down STS wins. 3600.00 kit that does the same HP peak as a 5000.00 kit!!!! HMMMM...way to much cockiness going around to even think about that though.
Seems to me that both types of systems are just as efficient!!! WHY??? Because if the IAT produced by the STS are NATURALY LOWER than the conventional front mount turbo kits, then whats the DIFFERENCE!!!??? You all say and agree that it is IAT vs EAT...well if the IAT on the front mounts are NATURALY HIGHER temps than the STS, given they run around 1200 degree EAT, that would mean it would be something like 120 degrees vs 1200 degrees (IAT vs EAT)!! Well the STS has low EAT running it but the IAT are NATURALLY LOWER as well...which would be around 90 degrees vs 900 degrees. The differences seem way to close to say one is WAY BETTER THAN THE OTHER!!!!!! Come on if someone runs a 10's track time with a system that you say isnt that efficient then I dont know what else to say. Sounds to me like too many heads stuck in one ***!
Anyway point being that if the diff. isnt that much anyway then BANG FOR BUCK is what we go for next right!! Well **** if STS will make me run a 10.95 and its 3600.00 or I can get the front mount which will make me run a 10.90 or better yet, a 10.85 but it cost 5000.00, I dont know about you but I'll see ya at the track with my STS and I'll just dial up the boost on the controller!!!
L8r
Seems to me that both types of systems are just as efficient!!! WHY??? Because if the IAT produced by the STS are NATURALY LOWER than the conventional front mount turbo kits, then whats the DIFFERENCE!!!??? You all say and agree that it is IAT vs EAT...well if the IAT on the front mounts are NATURALY HIGHER temps than the STS, given they run around 1200 degree EAT, that would mean it would be something like 120 degrees vs 1200 degrees (IAT vs EAT)!! Well the STS has low EAT running it but the IAT are NATURALLY LOWER as well...which would be around 90 degrees vs 900 degrees. The differences seem way to close to say one is WAY BETTER THAN THE OTHER!!!!!! Come on if someone runs a 10's track time with a system that you say isnt that efficient then I dont know what else to say. Sounds to me like too many heads stuck in one ***!
Anyway point being that if the diff. isnt that much anyway then BANG FOR BUCK is what we go for next right!! Well **** if STS will make me run a 10.95 and its 3600.00 or I can get the front mount which will make me run a 10.90 or better yet, a 10.85 but it cost 5000.00, I dont know about you but I'll see ya at the track with my STS and I'll just dial up the boost on the controller!!!
L8r
03-25-2005, 09:52 AM
#84
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One thing i can tell you I dont like about the front mount turbo though, AND THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION (I'm not saying they suck or anything like that), is that you have one side of your engine connected directly to a turbo and once boost is building it starts to almost create a vacuum like pressure (basically pulling some of the exhaust gasses). Well doesnt that mean that one side isnt getting that same effect!!! The driver side, in most instances, usually has to push its way through the pipes all the way over to the side where the turbo is and then starts to recieve some of the vacuum effect!! And Im not saying that it does or doesnt do what I'm about to say, but it seem like that alone could start to cause problems with your motor down the long run!!! Now I'm not sure that it does but its just a thought
03-25-2005, 06:14 PM
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I don't think you'll ever see a vacuum condition in your exhaust manifolds while under boost... in any turbo kit at this level. The old TTi street kits probably had some flow issues and some unequal backpressure on the cylinders due to the wastegate being on the crossover between the passenger and driver side manifolds.
03-26-2005, 01:46 AM
#86
Originally Posted by 01Blackerado
I think through out all of that we missed the BIGGEST POINT OF ALL...EVERYONE basically agrees that peak HP numbers are the same, CORRECT!!?? Well then isnt this whole fight to be the fastest about who can do it with the least amount of money into it and still be doing it properly!! In that case hands down STS wins. 3600.00 kit that does the same HP peak as a 5000.00 kit!!!! HMMMM...way to much cockiness going around to even think about that though.
Seems to me that both types of systems are just as efficient!!! WHY??? Because if the IAT produced by the STS are NATURALY LOWER than the conventional front mount turbo kits, then whats the DIFFERENCE!!!??? You all say and agree that it is IAT vs EAT...well if the IAT on the front mounts are NATURALY HIGHER temps than the STS, given they run around 1200 degree EAT, that would mean it would be something like 120 degrees vs 1200 degrees (IAT vs EAT)!! Well the STS has low EAT running it but the IAT are NATURALLY LOWER as well...which would be around 90 degrees vs 900 degrees. The differences seem way to close to say one is WAY BETTER THAN THE OTHER!!!!!! Come on if someone runs a 10's track time with a system that you say isnt that efficient then I dont know what else to say. Sounds to me like too many heads stuck in one ***!
Anyway point being that if the diff. isnt that much anyway then BANG FOR BUCK is what we go for next right!! Well **** if STS will make me run a 10.95 and its 3600.00 or I can get the front mount which will make me run a 10.90 or better yet, a 10.85 but it cost 5000.00, I dont know about you but I'll see ya at the track with my STS and I'll just dial up the boost on the controller!!!
L8r
Seems to me that both types of systems are just as efficient!!! WHY??? Because if the IAT produced by the STS are NATURALY LOWER than the conventional front mount turbo kits, then whats the DIFFERENCE!!!??? You all say and agree that it is IAT vs EAT...well if the IAT on the front mounts are NATURALY HIGHER temps than the STS, given they run around 1200 degree EAT, that would mean it would be something like 120 degrees vs 1200 degrees (IAT vs EAT)!! Well the STS has low EAT running it but the IAT are NATURALLY LOWER as well...which would be around 90 degrees vs 900 degrees. The differences seem way to close to say one is WAY BETTER THAN THE OTHER!!!!!! Come on if someone runs a 10's track time with a system that you say isnt that efficient then I dont know what else to say. Sounds to me like too many heads stuck in one ***!
Anyway point being that if the diff. isnt that much anyway then BANG FOR BUCK is what we go for next right!! Well **** if STS will make me run a 10.95 and its 3600.00 or I can get the front mount which will make me run a 10.90 or better yet, a 10.85 but it cost 5000.00, I dont know about you but I'll see ya at the track with my STS and I'll just dial up the boost on the controller!!!
L8r
If you think that the $3600 STS kit running 5 psi is turning out 10 second timeslips at full weigth , I want some of that **** that you're smoking
.
03-28-2005, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 01_SuperSlow
Wow, you sure taugth us something here
If you think that the $3600 STS kit running 5 psi is turning out 10 second timeslips at full weigth , I want some of that **** that you're smoking .
If you think that the $3600 STS kit running 5 psi is turning out 10 second timeslips at full weigth , I want some of that **** that you're smoking
. My point being bang for the buck!!!
03-28-2005, 04:10 PM
#88
Originally Posted by 01Blackerado
I think you took me a little TOO literally there. WE all know that a STOCK truck with an STS kit wont run tens My point being bang for the buck!!!
My point being bang for the buck!!!I get what you were trying to say though. I was just busting your *****
Nevermind what I post, Ima dumbass 
you're only supossed to listen to the parts i want you to
03-29-2005, 05:50 PM
#90
I came inches from ordering an sts likely with upgraded turbo but it wasn't that cheap.4000 for the base kit.Maybe a few hundred off on a deal.
I would have had to ditch my nice b and b catback and cut up my nice kenny brown double diamond subframe connector.
I think for say 2800 the sts is a good deal.in fact think it was 3000 when it first came out.
For 2300 the new phamspeed is a much better deal.Just add intercooler on there
or run meth like the sts does ,sure blow off is optional it is on the sts too.But what are you getting on the sts for 1700 more than the budget phamspeed kit? Quick install well the phamspeed supposedly can be installed in a couple of hours and don't like a oil pump if you can build a system without one.One more thing to break and mess up.
I have seen these arguements and have no doubt either front or rear can work and put out more power than the stock ls1 can handle.And a bit more lag can be good in a street car that is very traction limited.And you can compensate for lag with gearing,stall converters ,two steps..Also lag can be compensated from when moving by gearing down.
So its a pretty mute point.If sts dropped their prices tommorrow to around 2300 then would think about them seriously.I think and sorry sts guys but I think they are overpriced by at least a 1000 US right now.
I can buy the phamspeed twin turbo with supior turbos and hp capabilty and way quicker spool for 4500 bucks.that is super deal compared to 4000 for sts and everything on sts is optional too.No interdcooler included.heck the meth should be included for 4000 or the price should come down.
But we have all seen results on the dyno and track already to prove that either front or rear mounts work.And having 800 hp might not be much faster in the real world as traction becomes a problem even with the better drag tires at those hp levels.
So does the front mount spool a bit quicker or at lower rpm the two things can be a bit different .Thats one advantage of ball bearing turbos.They spool quicker but similar size turbos spool at simliar rpm.Still if you get there faster almost same effect.
All I can tell you guys after owning turbo bikes and now a few turbo dsms with bigger turbos is that its all good.Front or rear whatever your flavor both good both work both can take ls1 to over 500 rwhp pretty quickly at around 8psi or so.
Whats the point of all this theory crap..the sts works ,the front mounts work,turbos work..track and street..proven dynoed..
I would have had to ditch my nice b and b catback and cut up my nice kenny brown double diamond subframe connector.
I think for say 2800 the sts is a good deal.in fact think it was 3000 when it first came out.
For 2300 the new phamspeed is a much better deal.Just add intercooler on there
or run meth like the sts does ,sure blow off is optional it is on the sts too.But what are you getting on the sts for 1700 more than the budget phamspeed kit? Quick install well the phamspeed supposedly can be installed in a couple of hours and don't like a oil pump if you can build a system without one.One more thing to break and mess up.
I have seen these arguements and have no doubt either front or rear can work and put out more power than the stock ls1 can handle.And a bit more lag can be good in a street car that is very traction limited.And you can compensate for lag with gearing,stall converters ,two steps..Also lag can be compensated from when moving by gearing down.
So its a pretty mute point.If sts dropped their prices tommorrow to around 2300 then would think about them seriously.I think and sorry sts guys but I think they are overpriced by at least a 1000 US right now.
I can buy the phamspeed twin turbo with supior turbos and hp capabilty and way quicker spool for 4500 bucks.that is super deal compared to 4000 for sts and everything on sts is optional too.No interdcooler included.heck the meth should be included for 4000 or the price should come down.
But we have all seen results on the dyno and track already to prove that either front or rear mounts work.And having 800 hp might not be much faster in the real world as traction becomes a problem even with the better drag tires at those hp levels.
So does the front mount spool a bit quicker or at lower rpm the two things can be a bit different .Thats one advantage of ball bearing turbos.They spool quicker but similar size turbos spool at simliar rpm.Still if you get there faster almost same effect.
All I can tell you guys after owning turbo bikes and now a few turbo dsms with bigger turbos is that its all good.Front or rear whatever your flavor both good both work both can take ls1 to over 500 rwhp pretty quickly at around 8psi or so.
Whats the point of all this theory crap..the sts works ,the front mounts work,turbos work..track and street..proven dynoed..
03-29-2005, 06:02 PM
#91
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The install is a big deal, 3 hours for the complete STS installation scores big points with most people. My car is my daily driver and I need to pass emissions. It's great to install the kit one Saturday morning and be back on the road that afternoon. I was so excited when I got my kit installed Friday night and the next morning at my local Fbody dyno day I was putting down awesome numbers. The standard STS customer is your average Joe with $4,000 to burn that just wants to make their daily driver faster. A STS kit can be made fast, Brent and Ken's GTOs have proven that but it's main advantage is it's ease of installation. A complete Phamspeed or PTK install is going to be diffecult for the average Joe especially if he has to find parts.
A turbo kit is a turbo kit, I'm even planning on getting a front mount kit for my Jeep and I'm sure I'll love it as much as my STS kit.
A turbo kit is a turbo kit, I'm even planning on getting a front mount kit for my Jeep and I'm sure I'll love it as much as my STS kit.
03-29-2005, 06:27 PM
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Roy, well I have a customer that posted on our site..... I will quote it below...
And here is his other post a few days later....
Don't think outperforming a front mount will happen..... 
. Regardless of the manufacture of the front mount system.
Jose
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject: Pro Turbo kit question and thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jose this is Caleb. I bought a PTK system for my T/A last year from you. First of all thanks for everything, you are the only dealer that knew more about turbo's then the turbo companies themselves . I wanted to give you an update on the system. I went from a T-trim blower like I told you before. I made 447rwhp and 399rwtq at 8psi with the stock motor and all the bolt-ons. I put the PTK system on and with the same 8psi and the PT67 I made 481rwhp and 576rwtq. All I can say is WOW , this thing kicks butt and on pump gas to boost. My buddy went the turbo route as well and went with a 67 also but using a smaller turbine housing. He ended up running one of those rear mount setups, but it spools alot slower then my system does and falls off sooner on the top end. We run from a roll with both of us at 8psi and its no contest . From a 30mph punch I pull 3-4 cars to 100.. . We both have the same basic bolt-ons but I guess his system is maybe peakier. Anyhow, I want to add an electronic boost controller to the system. Will the turbosmart eboost hook up to the tial wastegate??? Also if my buddy and I both purchase one any chance you can hook us up with a little discount . Also I don't get on here much, so call me if you can if not I will try to call you nex week sometime.
Caleb
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Hey Jose this is Caleb. I bought a PTK system for my T/A last year from you. First of all thanks for everything, you are the only dealer that knew more about turbo's then the turbo companies themselves . I wanted to give you an update on the system. I went from a T-trim blower like I told you before. I made 447rwhp and 399rwtq at 8psi with the stock motor and all the bolt-ons. I put the PTK system on and with the same 8psi and the PT67 I made 481rwhp and 576rwtq. All I can say is WOW , this thing kicks butt and on pump gas to boost. My buddy went the turbo route as well and went with a 67 also but using a smaller turbine housing. He ended up running one of those rear mount setups, but it spools alot slower then my system does and falls off sooner on the top end. We run from a roll with both of us at 8psi and its no contest . From a 30mph punch I pull 3-4 cars to 100.. . We both have the same basic bolt-ons but I guess his system is maybe peakier. Anyhow, I want to add an electronic boost controller to the system. Will the turbosmart eboost hook up to the tial wastegate??? Also if my buddy and I both purchase one any chance you can hook us up with a little discount . Also I don't get on here much, so call me if you can if not I will try to call you nex week sometime.
Caleb
Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject:
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Well ,I was able to make it out to the track last night with my buddy. We went to beat up on some of the local rustangs . We ended up grudge match racing each other more then anything. He kept killing me at the light since I suck at this, but I kept coming around him on the top end. . Anyhow here are our timeslips on our best run. Both of us are at 8psi with T67's and stock motors with bolts, so we are even except for the turbo systems. His car dynoed about 50rwhp less .
Anyhow
him
rt-.581
60ft-1.81
660ft-7.57@96.42
1/4-11.66@119.6
me
rt-.977
60ft-1.88
660ft- 7.44@99.80
1/4- 11.49@124.7
I kept losing to him at the light. I just can't get it down into the 5's like he can. But I was able to pull him hard up top everytime we got in 3rd and 4th gear where the turbos are loaded. One thing I did want to ask was, he is using meth injection. Will that help my setup as well?? Does it matter that his is rear mount turbo and mine is front mount?? Anyhow thanks for the help.
Caleb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well ,I was able to make it out to the track last night with my buddy. We went to beat up on some of the local rustangs . We ended up grudge match racing each other more then anything. He kept killing me at the light since I suck at this, but I kept coming around him on the top end. . Anyhow here are our timeslips on our best run. Both of us are at 8psi with T67's and stock motors with bolts, so we are even except for the turbo systems. His car dynoed about 50rwhp less .
Anyhow
him
rt-.581
60ft-1.81
660ft-7.57@96.42
1/4-11.66@119.6
me
rt-.977
60ft-1.88
660ft- 7.44@99.80
1/4- 11.49@124.7
I kept losing to him at the light. I just can't get it down into the 5's like he can. But I was able to pull him hard up top everytime we got in 3rd and 4th gear where the turbos are loaded. One thing I did want to ask was, he is using meth injection. Will that help my setup as well?? Does it matter that his is rear mount turbo and mine is front mount?? Anyhow thanks for the help.
Caleb
. Regardless of the manufacture of the front mount system.Jose
03-29-2005, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by hellbents10
I am not holding my breath for record shattering 1/4 times. Just don't see a rear mount going 9's, 8's, or 7's for a reason.
Now eights .... I don't see somebody dumping all that money required to run eights into a car and then settling for a fundamentaly flawed turbo kit because they need to save a few hours on an install or are overly concerned with underhood temps.
03-29-2005, 10:09 PM
#96
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Well in all reality the rear mount setup could do 8's. The only problem will be fitting a unit big enough. A large frame turbo is huge,and hanging one of those suckers back their would be a hack job for sure.
Jose
Jose
03-29-2005, 10:29 PM
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damn... seems like everyone has an engineering degree or degree in phisics or thermodynamics or took classes in this or that or got arrested for screwing horses or something along those lines. with that being said, take those degrees and shove them as far as they will go cuz from what i read, for the most part, all you guys whos claim to fame is a degree in this or that and think you know everything usually end up sticking your foot so far down your throat its unbelievable. and for anyone who thinks along the lines of saying i do to, im no einstien, or whatever else, my reply to you is i dont clame to be any of that, nor do i throw my degrees around in peoples faces to make myself look like a genious.
however i do have a very very large amount of typing to do to voice my opinion (and what i know to be true facts that other people just cant seem to understand), but since i really dont feal like typing anymore than i already have, and i dont wanna pay $5 for raping the dead horse im gonna say to hell with my opinion and if you want it you can ask me specifically in this forum and id be happy to go head and type it out for you. remember only that it is my own opinion and if it offends you or you feal that it is wrong or just retarded in any way shape or form then you can go fist yourself cuz i dont give a damn, i never will give a damn and no amount of argueing or explaining will convince me otherwise of my own thoughts. however i will say this, my opinion and everything i "know" about physics, thermodynamics, the STS kit and other comparable turbo systems along with not so comparable turbo systems and the differences between them all, my opinion is now, always has been, and always will be in stong favor of the STS system. and althogh i love confrontation, i get my jolies off by argueing and im just itching to proving my point, im gonna refrain from doing so until someone asks for it.
however i do have a very very large amount of typing to do to voice my opinion (and what i know to be true facts that other people just cant seem to understand), but since i really dont feal like typing anymore than i already have, and i dont wanna pay $5 for raping the dead horse im gonna say to hell with my opinion and if you want it you can ask me specifically in this forum and id be happy to go head and type it out for you. remember only that it is my own opinion and if it offends you or you feal that it is wrong or just retarded in any way shape or form then you can go fist yourself cuz i dont give a damn, i never will give a damn and no amount of argueing or explaining will convince me otherwise of my own thoughts. however i will say this, my opinion and everything i "know" about physics, thermodynamics, the STS kit and other comparable turbo systems along with not so comparable turbo systems and the differences between them all, my opinion is now, always has been, and always will be in stong favor of the STS system. and althogh i love confrontation, i get my jolies off by argueing and im just itching to proving my point, im gonna refrain from doing so until someone asks for it.
03-30-2005, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Spin
damn... seems like everyone has an engineering degree or degree in phisics or thermodynamics or took classes in this or that or got arrested for screwing horses or something along those lines. with that being said, take those degrees and shove them as far as they will go cuz from what i read, for the most part, all you guys whos claim to fame is a degree in this or that and think you know everything usually end up sticking your foot so far down your throat its unbelievable. and for anyone who thinks along the lines of saying i do to, im no einstien, or whatever else, my reply to you is i dont clame to be any of that, nor do i throw my degrees around in peoples faces to make myself look like a genious.
however i do have a very very large amount of typing to do to voice my opinion (and what i know to be true facts that other people just cant seem to understand), but since i really dont feal like typing anymore than i already have, and i dont wanna pay $5 for raping the dead horse im gonna say to hell with my opinion and if you want it you can ask me specifically in this forum and id be happy to go head and type it out for you. remember only that it is my own opinion and if it offends you or you feal that it is wrong or just retarded in any way shape or form then you can go fist yourself cuz i dont give a damn, i never will give a damn and no amount of argueing or explaining will convince me otherwise of my own thoughts. however i will say this, my opinion and everything i "know" about physics, thermodynamics, the STS kit and other comparable turbo systems along with not so comparable turbo systems and the differences between them all, my opinion is now, always has been, and always will be in stong favor of the STS system. and althogh i love confrontation, i get my jolies off by argueing and im just itching to proving my point, im gonna refrain from doing so until someone asks for it.
however i do have a very very large amount of typing to do to voice my opinion (and what i know to be true facts that other people just cant seem to understand), but since i really dont feal like typing anymore than i already have, and i dont wanna pay $5 for raping the dead horse im gonna say to hell with my opinion and if you want it you can ask me specifically in this forum and id be happy to go head and type it out for you. remember only that it is my own opinion and if it offends you or you feal that it is wrong or just retarded in any way shape or form then you can go fist yourself cuz i dont give a damn, i never will give a damn and no amount of argueing or explaining will convince me otherwise of my own thoughts. however i will say this, my opinion and everything i "know" about physics, thermodynamics, the STS kit and other comparable turbo systems along with not so comparable turbo systems and the differences between them all, my opinion is now, always has been, and always will be in stong favor of the STS system. and althogh i love confrontation, i get my jolies off by argueing and im just itching to proving my point, im gonna refrain from doing so until someone asks for it.
