Who in the FI section has a car with:


Since this is roughly what we are comparing against.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30th t/a
full weight, 17" wheels with et streets/DR's, 346cid, stock internal, 93 octane in the 10s


am i blind, or did you slip "stock internal" into my quote????? hmm i dont remember saying that one.

FI comes closest to meeting my goals, which is 10sec full streeter. i can name numerous FI cars running 10s, full weight, 93 octane, stock cubes. most run race wheels.

bottom 11s is about what the average maxed out 346, pump gas 93oct, full streeter fbody is gonna see. im talking m6 too. to me a streetable maxed out ls1 is basically what i had, absolute stage 2.5s, g5x3 112, 90mm lsx. the heads flow 314cfm @.600, the cam was big but still drivable, 90mm lsx is top notch. sure you could go 240cc heads, monster solid roller, sheet metal intake and 12.5:1 comp. to me thats not streetable. i made 455rwhp through the exhaust w/low timing. what i made with my setup is in the norm. when i made 416rwhp, in -500da (full street) i went 11.9@119.9 with a 1.8. a 12 bolt and et streets, i coulda saw a 1.6 with my MPH that would be mid 11's. add the 40rwhp from my last setup and that should put me in the area of 11.3ish@123-124. i had stock suspension.

 

Stock internal can be assumed for a heads/cam 346 because there is no way you are going to push the limits of what the bottom end can handle NA. I suppose I should say stock bottom end, but I think that will be about the same result. It's nowhere near a fair comparison to have a blower on a built motor and a stock bottom end with nothing but heads/cam.

And now you are stipulating it be an M6?



So, any full weight, 17" tire, 346 cid., stock bottom end, 93 octane, M6, FI LS1 F-bodies in the 10's? Since this (plus the stock bottom end) is what you think could not be done with heads/cam I REALLY think you should be able to back it up with FI examples.


BTW: Comparing to your old setup there is a guy on the board with a best of 11.28 cam only with the smaller G5X2, run made in June in the midwest. Same basic setup but some suspension. Now take that and add a 90/90, bigger cam, and heads and you absolutely have a 10 second car.

 

1st, i dont give a **** about any other car. im talking about my car. my car is a full weight street car. it is a 6 speed. i dont want skinnies. i will have MT drag radials on the rear. im running 93. i drive mine alot, so i want 20+ a gallon which i did get with my H/C.

2nd, if you can f$cking read, i never said there wasnt a fbody running 10s with the options that im talking about. I SAID I NEVER SAW 1 OR READ ABOUT 1 ON HERE!!!

as for the g5x2 car good for him. find me the post that states everything about the car! if that car even exist, thats the only car you can find?

 

ok we'll keep it fair, put a forged bottom end in the H/C motor, it isnt gonna make any more power. i like power there 100% of the time too darn! that mean nitrous is out of the question plus i can turn a **** with my turbos and have more power...wow! i like that idea.

answer me this: what MPH does it take to get a 6speed, full weight ws6 running the big 17" in the 10s??

 

i would go with the h/c sometimes you can take people out who have SC and turbo i have seen that **** and its funny

 

riiiiiiiight....thats like that other thread in this section about the 800rwhp Supra running a 13.2 or some BS....if the FI car has any clue how to drive and has a decent setup he'll take the H/C car.

 

heres the only H/C that i can think of that races exactly how i race with basically the same setup as me. i know this because i have talked to him on here about his setup. he has afr 205s/g5x3/ ls6 intake. if he adds the 90mm setup he could be 11.0's-11.1s @123-124...thats full weight 17" wheels etc..

08-17-2005, 10:25 PM
mike c. mike c. is offline
10 Second Club

Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: mi
Posts: 1,838
Trader Rating: (0)
well...i've been on stock ws6 tires and full weight running 11.21 122.27 best. i like the fect that i'm not on skinnies like all my friends and foe's. now it's comming down to 10's on the motor and was wondering if the skinnie little tires could gain me another 1 tenth or so in the 1/4th. the truth is all the people i've killed keep spraying more juce and i need all the help i can get.

 

Then what you are talking about has no relevance to this thread. In case you forgot amidst our hijacking this thread is NOT about YOUR car. Guess I didn't realize you were hell bent on getting an exact duplicate of YOUR car with different motor mods until now.



You really want to keep it fair you take the H/C motor with forged internals and spray it. After all, 450-480 rwhp is enough 99% of the time on the street so going with a nice heads/cam setup then forging/spraying is a logical choice. You get a nice lope too, if you want.

 

well, really even with a maxed out H/C setup you can easily destroy the stock bottom: most H/C setups making that kind of power are making it a bit above the stock rev limiter Boost doesn't destroy stock motors, RPM and detonation does. If you have to spin it to 7g all the time its gonna give. If your running 93 octane gas with 10psi on a stock motor, its gonna give. Be smart with it and either setup will do you well.

That being said, I'm going STS

 

I just read part of an article from Car Craft on blowers. If the hp goal of 400-500 and the choices were a blower or a h/c, a h/c would be my first choice. The extra complications of a higher air inlet temperature, extra force on the crank snout, extra weight, extra cost, higher chance of detonation, piping, intercooler if used, extra pressure on the valves and springs, etc just aren't worth it when the same power can be made from a h/c. That's my opinion in that situation.

 

Force on crank snout.. Were not making 100# boost so its not a problem
Extra cost... I would say its comparable
Extra pressure on the valves... say what?
Extra pressure on the springs... more critical in a H/C car with a huge cam
Higher inlet temp... intercooler/aftercooler
Better chance of detonation... get an experienced tuner
Extra weight... well worth it
Extra complications... near stock drivability and good fuel millage "if you stay out of the boost", having near 700 crank hp, my complication is knowing my rear end will be short lived.

I see some H/C guys preaching Nitrous, its still FI guys, only in chemical form.

 

Is forced induction honestly the same price as heads/cam? Cause I really didn't think it was....

 

my old setup:
stage 2.5 heads = $1850 slightly used came with new springs.
g5x3 cam = $275 bought from a guy on but never used
headers = $300 bought from a guy on but never used
90mm TPIS = $400 used
90mm LSX = $760 on special new
asp pulley = $140 used
85mm MAF = $100 used
85mm lid = $100 used
home made BG ram air = $25
flycut pistons = $125.00 buddy did it
arp rod bolts = $70.00
comp 7.4" pushrods = $110
new gm head bolts = $36.00
new head gaskets = $45.00/pair mr. gasket LS1 .040"
new GM crank pulley bolt = $5.00
new plugs = $16.00
new oil = $30.00
new tune = $350.00
labor = roughly $650

total = $5387. this is a pretty good estimate. probably forgot some little stuff. not counting my full 3" exhaust, mufflers.

 

Quote from the article "Good springs may not seem like a priority, but especially with big block engines that use large-diameter valves (like our Rat), these components quickly become very heavy. Even at 6,000 rpm, this extra mass is tough to control. Consider, too, the boost pressure working on the inlet side of the intake valve. As an example, let's take a big block 2.250-inch intake valve producing an area of 3.97 square inches. With 20 psi of boost pressure with the intake valve on its seat, we have 20 psi pushing against almost 4 square inches, which equates about 80 pounds of force trying to open the intake valve against a spring pressure of perhaps 130 pounds. That leaves only 50 pounds of spring pressure to keep the valve closed at high rpm when the valve bounce is a common problem. On the exhaust side, typically the exhaust valve will be required to open against higher residual exhaust pressure in the cylinder, making the job tougher for the rocker and pushrod. As you can see, stuffing a blower on an engine makes it harder on the valve train components for reasons far beyond merely increasing cylinder pressure."

Taken from Car Craft Magazine, October 2005, p. 42

Granted the valves are smaller and weigh less, the same principle applies.

 

someone can correct me if im wrong.....but i havent seen many H/C cars making 500rwhp....and if they are they have to rev it to the moon to get there.you line up a 500rwhp H/C car and a 500rwhp S/C d car and the boosted car would take him....more power under the curve....just like a stroker car.if a stroker was making the same hp that a h/c car was the stroker would walk it cause of power under the curve.

 

agreed.

 

I took the Poor Mans Forced Induction route.

Heads/Cam with N20 going in. Cheaper. I like blowers, but don't have the $$ for major changes. A 100 shot on top of 413/383 should be fun.

I LOVE the sound of the H/C car on an M6, yet get my "boost" whenever I want to push the button

Lope gives me a hard on

 

Good info and interesting article,

No matter how agressive the set up any FI engine should have a good set of valve springs, even if the cam is stock. Also, I thought we were comparing 450 to 500 rwhp H/C and FI combos? I know it was for comparison but at 20# boost there are very few if any 346CI H/C cars making that kind of power. I have owned around 15 H/C cars and this is my first FI attempt, there is no comparison "IMO". Im in no way bashing anyone, I get a hard on when I hear some of the H/C cars also. Theres nothing cooler than setting off car alarms from half a block away and watching people turn to see whats comming down the street. Through my experience a properly set up H/C car will meet or surpass the cost of building an FI car. Also there is a wall or barrier you will hit with a H/C car that is a lot higher up in the HP range with FI. Once this wall is reached you can double or triple the dollar amount to gain HP in a H/C car Vs FI.

just my .02

 

Two options then, increased displacement or nitrous. Nitrous isn't that expensive.

If you have a lot of money to spend and want MAJOR power in a street car FI is a good choice, but I dont think most people have that kind of money to put into the car (or don't want to) and would be perfectly happy with 450-480 rwhp NA and 600 or so on the bottle.

There are different reasons to go either way.