If I had the money I would love to go bigger.. My thing is I cant afford to do both. You mentioned 346ci approx 490rwhp... Thats if it is an non h/c 346ci. Remember someone has already put down 597rwhp with 8lbs of boost with a Vortech Supercharger setup on h/c. I think the 422ci is a H/C setup plus other goodies. Also, I think you would get more than 550rwhp with 5lbs of boost on a 422ci. More like 600rwhp plus. Back to the racing thing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> While you are feathering it I am already shutting her down for the next opponent.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

I'm interested in a question that was thrown out earlier. Does the fact that the LS1 is all aluminum make a difference on head lifting? I used to put 26 lbs through my GN with nary a problem - but it was all cast iron with ARP bolts (those TTY head bolts can't help either. )

Has anyone tried cranking up the boost on one of those 6.0 truck blocks yet? Just wondering.

-Geoff

'02 Hawk #646

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">346 CID at 10 PSI at 6400 RPMs ~ 490 RWHP

422 CID at 4 PSI at 5500 RPMs ~ 550 RWHP

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who's 346? Not mine that's for sure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Are you considering indentical heads and cam on each motor?
That is a lousy comparison IMO.
Boost is only backpressure.You really should be looking at the mass flow into each engine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Convince yourself that less cubes is more powerful if you must try to justify staying with less cubes. But, don't try to sell it to guys that are taking that step up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never said less cubes is more powerful. I did say you can easily make up for the extra cubes.
I suppose if you have the money then why not add a few extra cubes during a buildup.Just don't get crazy and reduce strength anywhere for a few cubes.
I have been working with centrifugal superchargers since 1985 FYI.Took a little break from supercharging and went N20 for a while.
Poweradders is all I do with my engines <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> .
Now that some good parts are finally going into my 346 I'll step it up a bit.

Steve

<small>[ June 12, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: SJH ]</small>

 

Well now am I happy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Yes! Here's why.

I think that someone looking into forced induction could find this thread valuable. There are trade-offs on street driven cars, street/strip cars and all out race cars. Each making you look at different combinations to meet your personal goals and the reliability factor.

Questions like:
Supercharged or Turbocharged?
Iron or Aluminum?
Big bore or stock bore?
12PSI or 20PSI?
Big Turbo or Smaller Turbos?

These all need to be researched by the individual. With the understanding that there's no perfect combination. There are tradeoffs with every path.

Now back to the subject at hand...LOL

Heavy, high HP cars will definitely break parts. Be prepared to deal with that. I'm switching over to a Turbo 400 at the end of this season just for that reason. I'll also try to lighten the car without removing most of the good stuff that I appreciate. I won't list what they are since we'll all argue over what's really needed.

Y2K_WS6_T/A, you asked what type of Turbo I have now. My setup is a custom setup so it doesn't really match any other kit. My current Turbos are Mitsubishi Turbos. We played with G16's and G18's. These are the performance upgade Turbos that are normally used in the Eclipse cars. The new Turbos that I'm considering are a small T44. The G16's spooled almost instantly but were done at high RPM. They spooled so quickly that I really struggled in the rain to drive the car. I literally was scared to drive it in the rain. I'm hoping the larger mass of the new Turbos will allow me to have some lag and thus give me some RPM play on the car. If that makes sense?....anyway..

 

Both are my motors... the one I currently run and the one about to ship.

Of COURSE, they have different cam/heads.

BUT, the bigger cubed motor will make the bigger cam idle similar to the smaller cam I now have. There are MANY reasons to move to a bigger cubed setup... if you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Be prepared to deal with that. I'm switching over to a Turbo 400 at the end of this season just for that reason</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have a th400 sitting here but will run my 4l60e until it's dead before I install it.It has held up remarkably well so far.
I need a aftermarket rearend more than anything else right now.
I figure just about everybody can add 2000$ or so to the cost of forced induction for a aftermarket rear end.

 

White_2k2_Hawk, to answer your question on the Iron block motors. Rob Raymer is one of two guys that I know that were running boosted Iron blocks. Rob, had definitely lifted the heads on the Iron block. He also stated that he had no problem with fueling. He was running over 12PSI I believe with ARP studs. Now Harlan was runnning the stock block and heads/bolts and didn't lift once. So the jury is still out on the issue.

I will say this. I went with an iron block only becuase of strength and the ability to hold the bolts in the block. I'm using a larger diameter bolt (learned that from the GN guys) in the block. I plan on havine enough fuel AND injector since I'm also going to use DFI or FAST for engine management.

By the way someone told me privately that we're all a bunch of chickens and that someone need to crank the boost up. I think Harlan will lead the pack on this. He's gonna run 15PSI to start with and go up from there. I plan on 10PSI and go up from there.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by chasgiv3:
Not to start and argument about big cubes versus more boost but....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Happy now? <img border="0" alt="[fight]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No one is starting a fight, it's just the pros and cons.

Hey Black LS1 T/A, how much do you think that monster will loft off 1/4 ET with the same traction aide's you use now?

Like I said, you have the money, more power to you, you want the bragging rights, more power to you. Either way, everyone is happy. It's everyone's personal preference. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> Me personally, I couldn't spend the amount of a another used LS1 Z28 for such a buildup. That money would have to go into a C6 fund. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Oh, and if you guys are expecting turn-key packages at this level to NOT require any user technical ability, then yeah, some of us short on cubes maybe be able to run rings around you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" />

 

I think the LS1 FI guys have lagged behind the Mustang crowd simply due to the fact that LS1ers have needed some serious fuel systems, Weldon pumps and big line blah blah blah.

I have been impressed by Harlan keeping his heads on buy frankly, is that the result of tons of tuning? If so, the average DIY'er can't get there and find that potentially narrow window of reliabilty he appeared to have found last year...

Of course a bigger motor has a more efficient V/E, how will that factor in?

 

what's up John? Have not talked to you in a long while. You thinking about going forced induction?

A bigger motor does not mean a more efficient V.E.
Infact with the smallish intakes it is probably lower.
Would need to run some sims on that one.

Steve

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the LS1 FI guys have lagged behind the Mustang crowd simply due to the fact that LS1ers have needed some serious fuel systems, Weldon pumps and big line blah blah blah. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Come on John, you know better then to make a statement like that. ANY serious car making a ton of power needs a serious fuel system! It's only for some reason that (as of late) the LS1 net world is just finally starting to realize this. I mean, heck, until recently, certain high to be net people swore up and down that you can run 500RWHP NA with small stock injectors and never have issues on a STOCK fuel system!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have been impressed by Harlan keeping his heads on buy frankly, is that the result of tons of tuning? If so, the average DIY'er can't get there and find that potentially narrow window of reliabilty he appeared to have found last year... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haha... Why do people think that the LS1 is the only motor in the world that is so perfect that you can make 600RWHP with a turnkey package and canned tuning? Obviously there is a reason Harlan was able to make the power successfully and you are right, it is beyond MOST of the people that want that type of power. So don't be disappointed if the results aren't the same. Come on, let's face it, technology has gotten a ton better and easier, but at a certain power level, you're going to have to keep an eye on things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you don't have the means to do it, then you better be next to a super tuner and have a boat load of $$$. I have neither, so I'm happy with 300RWHP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

I think the biggest problem we're going to have is the heads themselves. The bolts/block don't seem to be the issue, but more so the heads bow inbetween the fasteners. There's just not enough meat in the heads at the base of the bore, and what is there is hollow. Now you could go w/ an iron head from the early LQ4, but do you really wanna take the hit from heat retention?

Bigger bores are easier to detonate for sure. But the heads and heat have much to do with it too.

I will be the first to say "don't try this at home" when it comes to my setup. I've pushed things pretty hard, but not without a careful consideration of what was needed. Fueling is first and fore most. Boosted power will need near .6 BSFC, don't kid yourself there. Plan for it.

Fuel is another big factor. Know what's in your tank, and spark the motor accordingly. I ran a mix of 110 in every tank. I had to, pushing the boost up to 12+ on 10:1 CR required it. The beauty of michigan and year round race gas at the local station.

Detonation will kill you, big cubes or small.

I watched the setup VERY carefully, had the laptop in the car most of the time until i got the scanmaster in there. Any KR and i got out of it. Simple as that.

and FWIW, i was only on the rollers tuning the car 3 times. Right after the install at 6.5 psi. Again when i went to bigger injectors and 8 psi, and again when i pushed it past 10 on racegas and the LS6 manifold. That's about it. Only thing every changed on the tuning was injector flow, and spark advance.

Canned tunning ain't gonna cut it for big boost. You need to be on a real dyno, with a wideband, and the tuning capability in front of you.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>By the time one of the big motor guys catch up to me on the street the race will be over.. Can you so less traction than me.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wouldn't count on that.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Rpm2800:
[QB][QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">10 head bolts don't seem to help much either.

(Maybe GM felt the head was so good, they wanted the head to be non boost friendly!! LOL.)

 

Oh you can count on it.. When I finally get my forced induction setup on my 346ci and I am running close to 600rwhp plus.. Its going to take some serious feathering for those bigger cube guys to get traction. I know this why.. A friend of mine had a hard time catching me when he was spraying and I was running NA.. No traction, no WIN!!

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>No traction, no WIN!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You said a mouth-full, there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

But, if you ever saw my 454 Big Block kill story, someone with no traction can be smart, not panic, and come out the other end a winner. (Plus, being able to win from behind is fun... let's you know what you could do when you get a hook-up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> )

My Stage II GWP/ATI kit pulled SO hard even at the bottom of 2nd gear (which is where I finally put it to the floor) that I pulled them by the time we got to the end of the quarter. These were cars that jumped 3 or 4 car-lengths ahead of me. One even took the middle of the road and I caught him when he moved over.

When I didn't panic and bided my time 'til I could floor it, he was ahead of me at the half-way point, but I was on his bumper. It amazed me how I still pulled him by a whole car in the last half of the quarter.

I guess it might have had to do with the fact that, combined with the steady flow of power from the blower, he ran out of gear (4.56's?) when my 3.73's still had some oomph! in 'em. <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

 

Vince, one word for ya. Adjustable boost controller. Ok that was 3 words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> Also I don't think (even if I had the tire on it) I'd want to unleash 800RWHP on the street. Things can happen pretty fast out there. Plus many of us out here run our 28" tall wide bodied ET street tires on the streets. But if your goal is street racing then I guess you need to follow your design to meet that end.

 

I for one suck at the track. I run nothing but DR's. I can care less about time. I am sure if we ran the best 2 out of 3 I would lose, but it is that one time I would remember. Why are you guys taking me serious anyway? I am over a year away for boost. I will just have my shortblock done this month. I still have to purchase 6.0L heads and decide on S/C or Turbo.. I usually race to 120mph and it comes up pretty quick.. Even in my NA setup.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

The proper solution for lack of traction is obvious...

Race from a 75 roll to 170 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

not too many supras around here for that, but we sure got alot of liter bikes that are more than willing to play when encouraged <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by VINCE:
<strong>Why are you guys taking me serious anyway? I am over a year away for boost. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you're going to go FI, we HAVE to take you seriously! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />