Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos
07-25-2002, 07:14 AM
#1
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos Are most of the LS1 turbo kits out there being sold with ball bearing turbos?
I hear the import guys raving about that, what would be the performance diff between two identical setups - one ball bearing and the other not?
I know the spool up is supposed to be quicker and maybe the bb ones are a little more efficient, is that right?
I hear the import guys raving about that, what would be the performance diff between two identical setups - one ball bearing and the other not?
I know the spool up is supposed to be quicker and maybe the bb ones are a little more efficient, is that right?
07-25-2002, 09:32 AM
#2
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jhelms:
<strong>Are most of the LS1 turbo kits out there being sold with ball bearing turbos?
I hear the import guys raving about that, what would be the performance diff between two identical setups - one ball bearing and the other not?
I know the spool up is supposed to be quicker and maybe the bb ones are a little more efficient, is that right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I used to have a GN and when this topic came up, there was a whole lot of hype. Unfortunately, nobody ever did a side by side comparison at the track or anything. I am really skeptical that there is a performance advantage to them at all. However, I think the big plus is reliability. Compressor stall and slam (when you let off from boost, the boost goes back out the turbo) can damage the hydro-static bearings over time. I think a ball bearing type center would be much more resistant to this.
Just my opinion, and I wouldstill really love to see that side by side performance test.
-Geoff
<strong>Are most of the LS1 turbo kits out there being sold with ball bearing turbos?
I hear the import guys raving about that, what would be the performance diff between two identical setups - one ball bearing and the other not?
I know the spool up is supposed to be quicker and maybe the bb ones are a little more efficient, is that right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I used to have a GN and when this topic came up, there was a whole lot of hype. Unfortunately, nobody ever did a side by side comparison at the track or anything. I am really skeptical that there is a performance advantage to them at all. However, I think the big plus is reliability. Compressor stall and slam (when you let off from boost, the boost goes back out the turbo) can damage the hydro-static bearings over time. I think a ball bearing type center would be much more resistant to this.
Just my opinion, and I wouldstill really love to see that side by side performance test.
-Geoff
07-25-2002, 10:33 AM
#5
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos There are a few different ball bearing setups out there.
Turbonetics makes one. They don't really help.
The Garret GT dual ball bearings are badass. GT series stuff just plain rocks. All new updated designs with more efficent wheels and dual ball bearings. This is what you want. My turbo was $1400. Price isn't that outrageous. A standard turbo was $1375.
Turbonetics makes one. They don't really help.
The Garret GT dual ball bearings are badass. GT series stuff just plain rocks. All new updated designs with more efficent wheels and dual ball bearings. This is what you want. My turbo was $1400. Price isn't that outrageous. A standard turbo was $1375.
07-25-2002, 01:10 PM
#7
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Scott 98Z M6:
<strong>The Incon kit uses the GT series turbos...
Scott</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Incon kit is that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
<strong>The Incon kit uses the GT series turbos...
Scott</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Incon kit is that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
Trending Topics
07-25-2002, 01:23 PM
#8
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 1,356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What Incon kit is that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The one that is on my car that is sitting in the parking lot right now! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Scott
Scott
07-25-2002, 02:46 PM
#9
On The Tree
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos I work at a large diesel engine manufacturer (you'd know if I told ya the name) and have talked to our local turbo gurus, as well as the reps from Garrett/Allied Signal about this.
Upsides of ball bearing:
better transient response, is what every person told me, and that it is noticeable seat of the pants
no mention of thrust/bearing durability gains
downside:
sensitive to oil - absolutely requires clean oil, more sensitive than the regular center sectioned turbos. This is one of the reasons that ball bearing turbos haven't made it into diesel trucks.
So far, the OEM's haven't seen the long term durability worthiness of a ball bearing turbo. Most of the experts I talked to said they will last shorter than the typical bearing turbo.
The reason I trust this info rather than the typical turbocharger shop is that the people who told me this info weren't trying to sell me anything, and have years and years of experience with these turbos. Garrett and the other larger OME turbo manufacturers were working on ball bearing turbos way before Turbonetics, and have many other technologies in the works - hydraulically spun turbos to control turbo speed, AVNT turbos that aid in spool and boost control, as well as braking in large diesel trucks, dual turbo sequential setups (notice I didn't say TWIN), exotic materials for the wheels & covers, etc etc.
my $0.02 - - -
I don't think there is any V8, short of those shooting for 1400+hp that requires the response of a ball bearing turbo. It will require more traction and drivetrain strength when you have faster spooling turbos. Indy teams sized their turbochargers accordingly so the response was slower, rather than breaking the tires free; the same thing goes for any large budget race teams employing turbochargers and lots of R&D.
Not to mention the initial cost of the turbo(s) and the rebuild costs.
Brian Green
89 TTA
01 Jeep TJ
Upsides of ball bearing:
better transient response, is what every person told me, and that it is noticeable seat of the pants
no mention of thrust/bearing durability gains
downside:
sensitive to oil - absolutely requires clean oil, more sensitive than the regular center sectioned turbos. This is one of the reasons that ball bearing turbos haven't made it into diesel trucks.
So far, the OEM's haven't seen the long term durability worthiness of a ball bearing turbo. Most of the experts I talked to said they will last shorter than the typical bearing turbo.
The reason I trust this info rather than the typical turbocharger shop is that the people who told me this info weren't trying to sell me anything, and have years and years of experience with these turbos. Garrett and the other larger OME turbo manufacturers were working on ball bearing turbos way before Turbonetics, and have many other technologies in the works - hydraulically spun turbos to control turbo speed, AVNT turbos that aid in spool and boost control, as well as braking in large diesel trucks, dual turbo sequential setups (notice I didn't say TWIN), exotic materials for the wheels & covers, etc etc.
my $0.02 - - -
I don't think there is any V8, short of those shooting for 1400+hp that requires the response of a ball bearing turbo. It will require more traction and drivetrain strength when you have faster spooling turbos. Indy teams sized their turbochargers accordingly so the response was slower, rather than breaking the tires free; the same thing goes for any large budget race teams employing turbochargers and lots of R&D.
Not to mention the initial cost of the turbo(s) and the rebuild costs.
Brian Green
89 TTA
01 Jeep TJ
07-25-2002, 03:20 PM
#10
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos When I went from a normal to GT ball bearing the response was the #1 difference I noticed. Its amazing. When you floor it at high RPMs, the boost hits hard and fast.
I run a little chrome K&N filter inline to the turbo to filter the oil to the turbo. Like you said, they require nice clean oil.
I run a little chrome K&N filter inline to the turbo to filter the oil to the turbo. Like you said, they require nice clean oil.
07-25-2002, 03:38 PM
#11
On The Tree
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos What many people also fail to realize when all they keep talking about is fast spool up, is that if you have high exhaust backpressures or high turbo speeds, you are hurting yourself at that point. Heat could be built up in the engine because of the high back pressure, or you are out of the efficiency zone and the air is being heated too much. I'd rather have a turbo that was a softer hit, and provided a smoother transition for the drivetrain as well as keeping the wheels from spinning. This isn't even taking into consideration the boost control issues you can have with an undersized turbo.
Brian Green
89 TTA
01 Jeep TJ
Brian Green
89 TTA
01 Jeep TJ
07-26-2002, 12:02 AM
#12
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 1,190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos As stated GT series are probably not going to spool much faster. Bearing and water cooling extend the life the turbo to more than twice that a non ball bearing turbo.
Gary
Gary
07-26-2002, 12:30 AM
#13
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Unreal:
<strong>The Garret GT dual ball bearings are badass. GT series stuff just plain rocks. All new updated designs with more efficent wheels and dual ball bearings. This is what you want. My turbo was $1400. Price isn't that outrageous. A standard turbo was $1375.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What would a comparable T76 one like that cost then?
<strong>The Garret GT dual ball bearings are badass. GT series stuff just plain rocks. All new updated designs with more efficent wheels and dual ball bearings. This is what you want. My turbo was $1400. Price isn't that outrageous. A standard turbo was $1375.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What would a comparable T76 one like that cost then?
07-27-2002, 10:34 PM
#15
TECH Fanatic
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos [QUOTE].... I used to have a GN and when this topic came up, there was a whole lot of hype. Unfortunately, nobody ever did a side by side comparison at the track or anything. I am really skeptical that there is a performance advantage to them at all. However, I think the big plus is reliability. Compressor stall and slam (when you let off from boost, the boost goes back out the turbo) can damage the hydro-static bearings over time. I think a ball bearing type center would be much more resistant to this.
I agree 100%
And I can tell you something. Talk to the fast GN guys (10 & low 11 sec cars), they are convinced that the ball bearing turbos is alot of hype.
Some of the BEST Garrett turbos are built/modified by Precision Turbo & Engine (PTE). Last I checked, they do not promote ball bearing turbos.
Ron,
ex-owner 89 TTA 11.87 @ 114 daily driver
P.S. If your worried about compressor surge in your 20+ psi boost LS1, get a blow-off valve (fart valve)..... Well, I dont think the LS1 community needs to worry about compressor surge anyway at the low boost level any of these LS1s are running.
You dont need a ball bearing turbo.
<small>[ July 27, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Kimchee and Rice ]</small>
I agree 100%
And I can tell you something. Talk to the fast GN guys (10 & low 11 sec cars), they are convinced that the ball bearing turbos is alot of hype.
Some of the BEST Garrett turbos are built/modified by Precision Turbo & Engine (PTE). Last I checked, they do not promote ball bearing turbos.
Ron,
ex-owner 89 TTA 11.87 @ 114 daily driver
P.S. If your worried about compressor surge in your 20+ psi boost LS1, get a blow-off valve (fart valve)..... Well, I dont think the LS1 community needs to worry about compressor surge anyway at the low boost level any of these LS1s are running.
You dont need a ball bearing turbo.
<small>[ July 27, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Kimchee and Rice ]</small>
07-28-2002, 04:20 PM
#16
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Green Oak, MI
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos I hope everyone is right on the non-BB thing.
I had 2 choices for the Miata. A BB kit that is a bolt on 235rwhp, beyond that you may not be efficient as far as the turbo itself and intercooler go, plus a log style manifold. Choice two was a non-BB turbo, but tubular manifold and makes a consistant 400rwhp until you start snapping rods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I've only talked to one guy who went from Kit A to Kit B, he says Kit B spools perfectly, but that may be because of better manifold design.
I also thought that non-BB wasn't bad for the Miata, if it needs servicing it takes about a whole 10 minutes to remove, one thing I like about RWD 4 cylinder cars, LOTS of room, there will be more room under the hood with the turbo kit than there was stock.
But listening to my turbo's spin down for a good minute after I shut off the Camaro is cool too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I had 2 choices for the Miata. A BB kit that is a bolt on 235rwhp, beyond that you may not be efficient as far as the turbo itself and intercooler go, plus a log style manifold. Choice two was a non-BB turbo, but tubular manifold and makes a consistant 400rwhp until you start snapping rods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I've only talked to one guy who went from Kit A to Kit B, he says Kit B spools perfectly, but that may be because of better manifold design.
I also thought that non-BB wasn't bad for the Miata, if it needs servicing it takes about a whole 10 minutes to remove, one thing I like about RWD 4 cylinder cars, LOTS of room, there will be more room under the hood with the turbo kit than there was stock.
But listening to my turbo's spin down for a good minute after I shut off the Camaro is cool too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
07-31-2002, 12:10 AM
#17
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoOne:
<strong>I had 2 choices for the Miata. A BB kit that is a bolt on 235rwhp, beyond that you may not be efficient as far as the turbo itself and intercooler go, plus a log style manifold. Choice two was a non-BB turbo, but tubular manifold and makes a consistant 400rwhp until you start snapping rods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I've only talked to one guy who went from Kit A to Kit B, he says Kit B spools perfectly, but that may be because of better manifold design.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is kit B and how much is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<strong>I had 2 choices for the Miata. A BB kit that is a bolt on 235rwhp, beyond that you may not be efficient as far as the turbo itself and intercooler go, plus a log style manifold. Choice two was a non-BB turbo, but tubular manifold and makes a consistant 400rwhp until you start snapping rods <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I've only talked to one guy who went from Kit A to Kit B, he says Kit B spools perfectly, but that may be because of better manifold design.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is kit B and how much is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
07-31-2002, 06:32 PM
#18
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Green Oak, MI
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos John,
Its a Racing Mazda kit, or 'Ric's Kit' as most people refer to it as.
I had some issues with it even before it was put on, quality of the shipping, condition of the painted pipes, of course they should not have been painted in the first place.
Ric had just started producing the kits, he makes 400 at the wheels and runs 10.90's @ 128mph in his stock motor'd/trans Miata with this kit.
I called and spoke with him, my new stuff left the shop today. New manifold design, new intercooler(mine arrived banged up) all powder coated silver for the car and packed seperatly. He threw in some extra's for my trouble and it will go on the car next week if I have to kill to make it happen.
I can't wait to get it finished up, the TEC III has been here for a while, just need to get that wired up too.
www.racingmazda.com
I can email you some pics if you like, T03/04 turbo, I might even get it polished <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Its a Racing Mazda kit, or 'Ric's Kit' as most people refer to it as.
I had some issues with it even before it was put on, quality of the shipping, condition of the painted pipes, of course they should not have been painted in the first place.
Ric had just started producing the kits, he makes 400 at the wheels and runs 10.90's @ 128mph in his stock motor'd/trans Miata with this kit.
I called and spoke with him, my new stuff left the shop today. New manifold design, new intercooler(mine arrived banged up) all powder coated silver for the car and packed seperatly. He threw in some extra's for my trouble and it will go on the car next week if I have to kill to make it happen.
I can't wait to get it finished up, the TEC III has been here for a while, just need to get that wired up too.
www.racingmazda.com
I can email you some pics if you like, T03/04 turbo, I might even get it polished <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
07-31-2002, 08:06 PM
#19
TECH Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NoOne:
<strong>
I can email you some pics if you like, T03/04 turbo, I might even get it polished <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be GREAT!
<strong>
I can email you some pics if you like, T03/04 turbo, I might even get it polished <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be GREAT!
08-01-2002, 01:08 AM
#20
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Ball Bearing LS1 Turbos http://home.earthlink.net/~visokey/CRW_0472L.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~visokey/turbo.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~visokey/turbine.JPG
Looks like any other turbo. Has the GT series 10 blade turbine. Thats my GT dual ball bearing turbo.
http://home.earthlink.net/~visokey/turbo.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~visokey/turbine.JPG
Looks like any other turbo. Has the GT series 10 blade turbine. Thats my GT dual ball bearing turbo.
