Turbo setup to smoke single supras?
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From: malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? a T-88 is a good sized turbo for most any engine that is to be driven on the street. The 2jz is just a bad *** motor when it comes to holding boost, also, I could be wrong, but from what I can tell from compressor maps many turbos seem to have been designed for use on smaller engines
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? The big Supra turbos flow ALOT of air. They can flow just as much on a V8, except that the V8's would have a much better spool up time due to the increased displacement. You generally have to wait until 4500-5500 rpms on a Supra to hit full boost with a large single. With an LS1, you would probably hit full boost at maybe 3000-3500 rpms. (maybe Rob Raymer will chime in on this) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
TECH Apprentice
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From: Bellingham, WA
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? On most cars a t-76 and t-88's are just overkill... Most people are running their turbos at boost levels like 6-10 psi and the turbo's sweet spot is alot higher than that usually 20's most of the time on the big turbo cars. I am guessing most dont run higher as the tuning with stock computers gets trickier and more dangerous
Look at SW with his Supra Turbo 6 speed car. He had a t-88 then switched down to a t-72 and picked up power. He is now running a 50 shot i believe on the car but sometimes more isnt better....
If you put a big turbo on some of the motors I am seeing built they will love it. The only thing is bigger turbos will need more converter to get them really to go or launching harder. It is the complete package and tuning..
There is alot of buick grand national guys using 88's and 91's some even bigger but huge turbos and still on a v6. I honestly come back to it is the package not just one component that will make the car insanily fast.
Granted take what i say with a grain of salt as it is just my opinion.
Steven
Look at SW with his Supra Turbo 6 speed car. He had a t-88 then switched down to a t-72 and picked up power. He is now running a 50 shot i believe on the car but sometimes more isnt better....
If you put a big turbo on some of the motors I am seeing built they will love it. The only thing is bigger turbos will need more converter to get them really to go or launching harder. It is the complete package and tuning..
There is alot of buick grand national guys using 88's and 91's some even bigger but huge turbos and still on a v6. I honestly come back to it is the package not just one component that will make the car insanily fast.
Granted take what i say with a grain of salt as it is just my opinion.
Steven
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? You guys have to remember also, that the turbo the Supra's are using are Mitsu based turbo's. the nomenclature is not the same as turbonetics. The Greddy T78 33D and T88 33D& 34D kits that most of these guys are using, the turbo is actually only a 66mm turbo, and a 69mm turbo. So in turbonetics numbering, they are actually only a T66 and T70 respectively. Nonetheless, those turbo still flow alot of air.
Jose
Jose
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? JZ...good info...i did not know that. We will have to meet up sometime with 2bseen....I hear there is some good..."car testing" in the Huntsville area on weekends
Thread Starter
Launching!
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From: Indianapolis
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by AlienDroid:
<strong>Ian, I'd focus on building a setup that could handle 18psi efficiently. The ls6 intake will not cut it in this case.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would 18psi be a good operating range for a T-88, or a T-76?
Thanks
<strong>Ian, I'd focus on building a setup that could handle 18psi efficiently. The ls6 intake will not cut it in this case.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would 18psi be a good operating range for a T-88, or a T-76?
Thanks
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Bellingham, WA
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? yes you could run the turbo up in the 18-20 range. It will take a aftermarket computer but can be done.
The major thing that will come is the computer imo. If you keep the detonation away you will be fine.
Steven
The major thing that will come is the computer imo. If you keep the detonation away you will be fine.
Steven
TECH Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: ...
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by zturbo:
Alien nice setup that turbo is gonna hold you back something fierce.... Cant wait to hear what ya do with a real turbo on there <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thanks zturbo. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Ian, I've been looking into this kind of intake mani, however the price is out of control.
http://www.nitrouswarehouse.com/ls-spyder.htm
Does anyone know of someone that will build this mani for a reasonable price?
<small>[ August 15, 2002, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: AlienDroid ]</small>
Alien nice setup that turbo is gonna hold you back something fierce.... Cant wait to hear what ya do with a real turbo on there <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thanks zturbo. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
Ian, I've been looking into this kind of intake mani, however the price is out of control.
http://www.nitrouswarehouse.com/ls-spyder.htm
Does anyone know of someone that will build this mani for a reasonable price?
<small>[ August 15, 2002, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: AlienDroid ]</small>
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? Ian PSI's really don't tell you much. You have to look at the airflow in lbs/min. Take a T88 make 18psi on a 4cyl and then make 18psi on a 502BB, we are talking huge difference in airflow. So in reality, you could take say a T76 and make around 10-12psi on a 382 LS1 and it will put that turbo somewhat close to the sweet spot that Zturbo was explaining. The same boost pressure on a Supra would barely have the turbo spinning. Boost is only a function of backpressure in the motor, or lack of breathing.
jose
jose
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Indianapolis
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? AlienDroid That manifold does look awesome! Have you tried that Hogans place for a custom?
JZ Thanks for that explanation. I see what you're talking about. Do you feel either the T-88(H) or the T-76 are a good choice of turbo for the LS1 (looking for 750+rwhp)? I'm just trying to get an idea of what components would be needed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Thanks
JZ Thanks for that explanation. I see what you're talking about. Do you feel either the T-88(H) or the T-76 are a good choice of turbo for the LS1 (looking for 750+rwhp)? I'm just trying to get an idea of what components would be needed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Thanks
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? A T-76 will do the job all day. A T88 would also, but that would increase some lag and run into space issues. Remember part of the reason why our cars are superior is due to the broad range of power we make. Unlike the Supra which are very peaky motors. So if you can reach the hp goal you want and keep the turbo to as small and fast spooling as possible then you will achieve the best setup. Case in point, my cousins 01 LS1 Z28 auto with a few free mods I've done to it and lid and exhaust makes 335rwhp and 355rwtq. That curve though extends from very low in the range and keeps a nice flat level to it. Now my other good buddy has a 94 TT supra BPU. Car is an auto also and makes 408 rwhp, but their is nothing below 4000rpms. Note he has a much higher peak #, but his average #'s are maybe 10-15rwhp better then my cousins though he peaks at 73rwhp more. So when they race its usually my cousin with a slight jump and then the Supra very slowly starting to pull back and then past us. Now another case in point, my LT1 was making 460rwhp N/A (383 with CC306) with all 8cyl and I would plain walk away from the Supra at any speed, by many car lengths. The motor then lost a cyl and still oil smoked its way to only 426rwhp and even then I would walk big time. So the sooner you can get the boost to hit and sustain it through an rpm range the faster you'll go. Sorry for the long winded explanation.
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? BTW remember a T76 P-trim flows 90 lbs of air per/min (I'll have to look at my turbo spec sheets to be positive, but I'm 99.9% sure). So using a basic turbo equation BHP=10.86*lb/min. So we are looking at 977.4 BHP. Then to compute rwhp take the simple rwhp = .85 x bhp, thats 831 rwhp.
Now you'll have to have a hefty fuel system to handle that power. So we will need the equation fuel gal/hr = air (lb/min) * 60 (min/hr) / (12 (a/f ratio) * 6 (lb/gal)). Which if we input 90lb/min, we get 75 gal of fuel per hr. So a 255lph Walbro will flow 67 gals per hour, so you will need at least 2 of them in parellel which would give you 134 gals per hour. Good luck
Jose
Now you'll have to have a hefty fuel system to handle that power. So we will need the equation fuel gal/hr = air (lb/min) * 60 (min/hr) / (12 (a/f ratio) * 6 (lb/gal)). Which if we input 90lb/min, we get 75 gal of fuel per hr. So a 255lph Walbro will flow 67 gals per hour, so you will need at least 2 of them in parellel which would give you 134 gals per hour. Good luck
Jose
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From: ...
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? JZ97, you are very right about power curve.
Even in the powerband supras tend to go from 150 hp blow peak then back to 100 hp less then peak by redline. They have such horrible avg hp compared to peak hp in the powerband (the rpm rang from an upshift to redline) that an equal weight car with a flat curve and 30-50 less hp will basically pull a car or so on a roll and then hold them off. Every time the supra shifts it will fall way back again, then start gaining ground then fall back again.
Now go look at Rob Raymore's z28's dyno and it remains within 10hp of the power peak all the way accross the powerband. from 5400rpm to 7300rpm.
Rob's 707rwhp is pretty much worth a 760rwhp supra dyno.
Even in the powerband supras tend to go from 150 hp blow peak then back to 100 hp less then peak by redline. They have such horrible avg hp compared to peak hp in the powerband (the rpm rang from an upshift to redline) that an equal weight car with a flat curve and 30-50 less hp will basically pull a car or so on a roll and then hold them off. Every time the supra shifts it will fall way back again, then start gaining ground then fall back again.
Now go look at Rob Raymore's z28's dyno and it remains within 10hp of the power peak all the way accross the powerband. from 5400rpm to 7300rpm.
Rob's 707rwhp is pretty much worth a 760rwhp supra dyno.
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From: ...
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? One thing you need to consider is the effective displacement of the motor caused by the boost.
at about 14.x lbs of boost you effectivly double engine displacement as far as intake mani and headers are concerned.
my engine is 408ci. So it's like putting an ls1 intake mani on a 816ci motor, which would be very stupid. This is why people like Rob Raymor from ls1motorsports only made 707rwhp on around 15psi of boost with an ls6 intake. I think that motor of his on 15psi should make 800rwhp easy.
At 14.x psi or 1 Bar (one atmosphere of pressure, which is technically 2 Bar with our natural atmosphereic pressure add but read as 1 bar) the volumn of air between the turbo and the manifold is twice as dense or thick as normal air at sea level. Whenever the valves open for the intake stroke the air that rushes into the near vacumn of the cylinder is comeing from a source of very dense air or pressurized air. The turbo doesn't push air into the engine, it simply pressurizes it.
but because air has to move from the turbo through an intercooler, piping , intake and heads you always lose some pressure on the way to the cylinder. If you can minimize this pressure loss you will be able to make more hp on the same boost level.
My theory is, the easier it is to stuff the air into the cylinders, the easier it is for the turbo to spin, thus there will be less back pressure and you will pick up hp from both ends of the engine just by making intake flow less restrictive.
at about 14.x lbs of boost you effectivly double engine displacement as far as intake mani and headers are concerned.
my engine is 408ci. So it's like putting an ls1 intake mani on a 816ci motor, which would be very stupid. This is why people like Rob Raymor from ls1motorsports only made 707rwhp on around 15psi of boost with an ls6 intake. I think that motor of his on 15psi should make 800rwhp easy.
At 14.x psi or 1 Bar (one atmosphere of pressure, which is technically 2 Bar with our natural atmosphereic pressure add but read as 1 bar) the volumn of air between the turbo and the manifold is twice as dense or thick as normal air at sea level. Whenever the valves open for the intake stroke the air that rushes into the near vacumn of the cylinder is comeing from a source of very dense air or pressurized air. The turbo doesn't push air into the engine, it simply pressurizes it.
but because air has to move from the turbo through an intercooler, piping , intake and heads you always lose some pressure on the way to the cylinder. If you can minimize this pressure loss you will be able to make more hp on the same boost level.
My theory is, the easier it is to stuff the air into the cylinders, the easier it is for the turbo to spin, thus there will be less back pressure and you will pick up hp from both ends of the engine just by making intake flow less restrictive.
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Indianapolis
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? Thanks a lot for the "Turbos 101" guys. Now, which heads currently on the market are best suited for a turbo application of this type? Hogged out LS6's or 6.0 heads? What formula can be used to figure out how much cfm the heads and intake should flow at that level of hp?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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From: ...
Re: Turbo setup to smoke single supras? For a very simple explanation of turbos and how they work.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
The most important mod for a turbo setup is to build an engine that can handle boost.
Rob's buildup info is really good.
http://www.ls1motorsports.com/Project-Camaro.asp
http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
The most important mod for a turbo setup is to build an engine that can handle boost.
Rob's buildup info is really good.
http://www.ls1motorsports.com/Project-Camaro.asp