SuperDaves Z

I'm wondering if anyone is running alcohol injection on their turbo LS-1. I know its big with Turbo Buicks and I am interested to see if it would work with our cars. It would definatly be a plus not to run 103+ fuel all the time. What problems, if any, is there with the tuning.

Thanks,
Dave

smokinHawk

iTrader: (48)

Hi hows it going Dave.
anyway there is a guy here "blackbird" he is the alki guru here, running a powerdyne with no intercooler making desent power with the kit.

this spring im going to try propane injection, does similer things as the alki, but reportavly better and lasts longer.

Blackbird

SJH is the guru.

I am just a young jedi who has done well learning from Yoda.

It works great even at my measly 5psi. Moving up to a bigger blower and 7-8psi so I will really put it to the test.

SJH is pushing 10-11psi and damn close to 600rwhp with no issues.

Both are homemade kits. I mimicked a bit of his and a bit of others I found on the net.

It's incredibly easy to deal with and I am actually suprised more people don't do it.

TurboTnZ06

The Buick guys seem to be moving to propane, as kits become more readily available. I know Jay Carter is building kits for Buicks and has had good results and builds the kits with high quality parts. I don't know if his kits could be adapted for use on LSx turbo setups, but I don't see why not <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />

SS00Blue

I know it's not an LS1, but I've run the SMC kit on my Laser at 20PSI with no issues. The EGTs stay nice and cool, and since it's adjustable, if I run into a bad tank of gas, I just tweek the **** a bit and the EGTs stay right in line.

This kit is going on my LS1M turbo SS... when the kit gets here.

SC-

SuperDaves Z

Hey Jonathan, how's the car runnin', I guess its pretty cold up there. I know propane is the newest/ best way to go. I just don't have a place to mount that big *** bottle. What kit are you going to use? I've seen some supras running real good on propane and it's suppost to last a long time.

SSOOBlue, I talked to one of the guys at SMC and he said it should work great, but the GN guys have all different chips for the amount of alky/water they run. I think propane or alky is the way to go, I'm just to chicken to be one of the first to use it.

Black bird, who is SJH? I guess if it works good with the blower, it would work for a turbo, the only difference being I change my boost levels constantly. I would definatly like to know more about your set-up if you don't mind.

Thanks All, Have A Good New Year

Dave

TchargedLS1TA

iTrader: (9)

Im not a big fan of alcohol or water injection... Its just a way of hiding tuning problems in your engine.. Once you can get your engine to run great without it (i.e. better I/C, timing, fuel) then you can save the hassle of adding unwanted weight and more lines to run through that already hellish engine compartment...

SS00Blue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TchargedLS1TA:
<strong>Its just a way of hiding tuning problems in your engine.. Once you can get your engine to run great without it (i.e. better I/C, timing, fuel) then you can save the hassle of adding unwanted weight and more lines to run through that already hellish engine compartment... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It has one 18" steel line and two small cables.

And you tune the car however you want on pump gas, then use alky to allow more boost, or to assist when bad gas is purchased, but it ALWAYS creates a cooler, more dense charge, and thus more power. The SMC allows the selection of the point at which the pump energizes, and the speed of the pump (which controls the volume of alky).

It doesn't "hide" anything, it saves head gaskets and totally cleans valves and pistons to boot.

Why publish an opinion on something you've obviously never used?

SC-

jleews6

iTrader: (2)

Im with ss00blue. It is very easy to tune and works great.I used it (SMC) on a buick and it worked great.22# on pump gas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> with 0 knock retard.This was along time ago and the car is still running great.

parish8

iTrader: (6)

looking for a few oponions here. lets say i can run 7psi(non intercooled) on 92octane, this is my limit before knock sets in. how much more boost might i be able to run with water/alkey injection?

trying to decide on keeping 6-7psi and going with a small shot of nitrous or trying to up the boost a few psi and using some water injection.

if i could get an extra 2-3psi with water/alky injection and still run 92octane i would go that route and forget about the nitrous. what do you think?

SS00Blue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by parish8:
<strong> looking for a few oponions here. lets say i can run 7psi(non intercooled) on 92octane, this is my limit before knock sets in. how much more boost might i be able to run with water/alkey injection?

trying to decide on keeping 6-7psi and going with a small shot of nitrous or trying to up the boost a few psi and using some water injection.

if i could get an extra 2-3psi with water/alky injection and still run 92octane i would go that route and forget about the nitrous. what do you think? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm running 20PSI on a 2.0L Laser with aggressive timing. I know Steve (SMC) is running 20PSI (108 chip) with aggressive timing on a T-R. And I believe Steve (SJH) is using 12PSI with his custom alky. Alcohol adds octane and cools the charge for WAY WAY more agressive settings than pump gas could ever support. No question.

Do a search on SJH. He's in Dearborn I beleive.

SC-

superchargedZ

I am running just under 12lbs and 26* of timing. The SMC alky injection works. Or any alky injection for that matter.

smokinHawk

iTrader: (48)

Right now there are to propane kits out
the IPO http://www.propaneinjectionsystems.com/
and the "Propain" kit http://www.dynamicracing.com/custome...90fcd75d5e2734

i think im going to get the less expensive IPO kit, cause i dont need all the bells and whistles right now.

and for the "big" propane tank, their not that big, you can get small ones. I was going to fit it in the trunk at the driver side compartment.

Phate

iTrader: (2)

I am running one of the earlier dynamoc racing propane kits on my car.

Seems to work well augmenting pump gas and I can squeeze a few more pounds of boost out of the car on 91 octane.

Things to look out for on the propane side:
-It is hard to keep the bottle at a constant pressure and get the same propane dose everytime. Supposedly someone is coming out with a bottle heater for this.
-Propane adds fuel and it is a little tough tweaking your A/F ratio to get it inline when pushing the propane.
-Propane is really a poor substitute for all out racing efforts...my car runs a bit slower on propane then it would on just pure 101.

My car has gone a best of 11.5 @ 122 on propane and 91 with the boost around 7.5 psi...not too bad for the street though.

On 91 octane and xylene I can run 9 psi and the car runs 11.1 @ 127.

Scott

Phate

iTrader: (2)

Gary,

I haven't seen anything like that with my setup yet.

I have my sensor placed in the Incon Y-pipe where one of the rear o2s is supposed to go. I should probably move it further forward but I haven't had the time.

From what you describe I think that there is a good chance that some air is getting in there. How long did you let the car run while you were taking readings? Had the computer had enough time to learn the changes?

I am assuming that with the big 50lb. injectors you would need to play a little with the offset table as well to get things to correct at part-throttle.

On another note, I am REALLY glad that you finally got your car together after all of this time. Way to stick it out, congrats!!!

Scott

red ws6 99

Scott, with the 50 lb injectors I had to set my injector constant to 4.44 and idle to 1000 rpm for when the car was sitting at in park and warming up otherwise it was supper lean or supper rich and surging. The injector constant for 50 lb should be 7.68 so I diffinetly had to tweak things. I did not play with offsets because I could not find any information on how the 50 lb reacted. I figured with the stockers I could trouble shoot other stuff and not worry if it was the injectors. Since I had the 3 psi actuator and live at 4200 feet and 91 octane, I wont even be making 380 rwhp which the stock injectors can handle for now. Once I track down leaks, etc, etc, I can worry about running higher boost and making a little power.

Thanks it was cool to drive the car after it had been on jack stands for 18 months. I still need to make a exhaust system, I just have two down pipes and a flowmaster y-pipe (never got an the Incon y-pipe). So I need to cut about 7-8" out of the back half of my exhuast system to get it to work.

Gary

Gary

red ws6 99

Scott, I have a couple questions for you on the wideband setup (FJO).

I finally got more car put together yesterday (Incon Stage I). I had 50 lb injectors in but could not get the afr at idle to stablize, cold startup it would be 13-14 afr (based on my FJO), once the car warmed up it went up to 15.5-16 afr. I messed around could not get it any different. So I put the stock injectors and programming back in 26.4 lb and I get the same thing. I am assuming I have a leak in the exhaust causing the problem, but wanted to see if you saw anything similiar.

Gary

SJH

a good water/alky system is superior to a propane system for detonation suppression system IMO.
Propane is nothing but a extra high octane fuel source with some charge cooling effects.

Heck it's quite easy to convert the entire fuel system to run on pure propane.There are tons of cars out there doing this. You will not make more power though.
Water is the key. A lot of buick guys use it more so for a fuel source and it gets referred to as a Alky system. In that respect propane may be a better choice.
A 50/50 mix seems to work the best for detonation suppression from all historical internal engine testing.
Nothing works as well as water to reduce detonation. NOTHING.It has infinite octane.

I'm not a Guru. Nothing I have done and nothing anybody is doing has not all been done by our grandfathers.

We may think this is something new but it's not.
It was first used in WWII on fighters and bombers.
There is fascinating info available on this!
They were running extreme boost pressures and needed even more power and speed.
Water was found to be the key to incredible boost.
The Germans were onto it also, but were injecting it directly into the cyls and not with the charge air.
It did not work as well as mixing it with the air charge like Us Americans were doing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> .
Alcohol was needed and added to keep it from freezing.
Isopropyl alcohol was found to be horrible compared to ethanol or methanol. They found no difference in power output using ethanol or methanol with the water.
Right now I have been using a 3 nozzle system at 100psi post blower.
It works very well.

But anyhow the water/alky systems all work very good. It does add complextity to the engine.
So you have to decide is it something you want to deal with.
Steve

Phate

iTrader: (2)

I agree that propane in and of itself will not make more power, but it will give you the ability to make more power because you can add more boost without detonation.

The nice thing about propane is that it can extend the range of the fuel system a little bit because it is a fuel source in and of itself. Does water/alky do this as well?

My knowledge of water/alky is a little limited as I have done more reading on propane then anything else.

Thanks,

Scott

TchargedLS1TA

iTrader: (9)

Its the same thing Corky Bell says, and I kind of agree with him, since he does know his ****...