Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups..
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From: Valrico, Florida
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. So Dug you are saying run gears with a SC'd car to make up for the midrange power the turbo car makes with say 3.42 gears. If this is the case.. Turbo's would like gears as well to spool up quicker..
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Go back and look at my dyno for my stock 346.
I'm at a flat, high RWHP curve from 4500 RPMs to redline.
Torque is peaked right at the point where the SY3500 kept the bottom of my revs shifting from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. I couldn't imagine a much better scenario for the HP range. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I'm at a flat, high RWHP curve from 4500 RPMs to redline.
Torque is peaked right at the point where the SY3500 kept the bottom of my revs shifting from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. I couldn't imagine a much better scenario for the HP range. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. More gears are gonna help all cars accelerate quicker. With most turbo motors being done at 6000 too much gear will mean shifting into the dreaded fifth gear.
The weird thing is you never see anyone overdrive the blower to get boost quicker. Like have 8 pounds at 5000rpms. Im guessing the pulley becomes too small and the belt starts slipping.
Dont trip on the dyno reference. I question the hp claimed. Im just usin it as an example on how to set up a car with that engine. The converter would have to a least be a 5500rpm stall and the shift extension should be around 6200rpms. Nobody is gonna wanna run that on the street.
The M6 would be even tougher to sort out. Our first gear is too tall for getting a good 60ft time. You almost would be better off over gearing and using 5th.
This all for getting the lowest ets of course. Look at the the 9 second cars. Their 60ft time is in the 1.3s. Thats tough to do without a lot of torque.
The weird thing is you never see anyone overdrive the blower to get boost quicker. Like have 8 pounds at 5000rpms. Im guessing the pulley becomes too small and the belt starts slipping.
Dont trip on the dyno reference. I question the hp claimed. Im just usin it as an example on how to set up a car with that engine. The converter would have to a least be a 5500rpm stall and the shift extension should be around 6200rpms. Nobody is gonna wanna run that on the street.
The M6 would be even tougher to sort out. Our first gear is too tall for getting a good 60ft time. You almost would be better off over gearing and using 5th.
This all for getting the lowest ets of course. Look at the the 9 second cars. Their 60ft time is in the 1.3s. Thats tough to do without a lot of torque.
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From: Valrico, Florida
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. I see both points.. I think both setups can be lethal when properly setup..
<small>[ February 11, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: VINCE ]</small>
<small>[ February 11, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: VINCE ]</small>
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Youre right Mike. Your cars powerband was good but Im still gonna **** on your parade. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Your best 60ft time was a 1.65 and that sucks for an a4. Dont take it as disrespect. Sounds like your track doesnt hook. Imagine how deep into 10's you would have gotten if you could have cut some 1.4s short times. You still had room for improvement with the old combo. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Your best 60ft time was a 1.65 and that sucks for an a4. Dont take it as disrespect. Sounds like your track doesnt hook. Imagine how deep into 10's you would have gotten if you could have cut some 1.4s short times. You still had room for improvement with the old combo. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
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From: Valrico, Florida
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. C'mon guys.. No bashing.. This thread is suppose to help those decide on a combo that they think will benefit their future goals.. I for one want to trap above 135mph on a bad day.. I can care less if I run a 12.2 at the same time.. My plans at this time are 6.0L heads and a F1 blower from ATI with 4.10 gears.. I am shooting for 650rwhp on pump gas with 12psi of boost.. Am I dreaming or do you think a T76 would be easier to get me there with 3.73's?
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Im not bashing. I hope Mike doesnt take it that way. His first combo was fast and it still had some untapped potential. I was just jokin a little bit.
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Vince
It sounds like you are a mph junky. Too bad we dont race to 1km like they do in japan.
For your goals, Id think it would be possible with a blower. Your biggest problem would be piston durability. The ringlands are too high. It might survive with the right tune. Also, belt slippage will be an issue.
As far as traction goes the supercharger might hook better. Still, youre gonna need some tires for that kind of mph, or else youre gonna be spinnin half way down the track.
<small>[ February 11, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: dug ]</small>
It sounds like you are a mph junky. Too bad we dont race to 1km like they do in japan.
For your goals, Id think it would be possible with a blower. Your biggest problem would be piston durability. The ringlands are too high. It might survive with the right tune. Also, belt slippage will be an issue.
As far as traction goes the supercharger might hook better. Still, youre gonna need some tires for that kind of mph, or else youre gonna be spinnin half way down the track.
<small>[ February 11, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: dug ]</small>
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
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From: Valrico, Florida
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Well dug I do not race at the track.. So track times are not important at all to me.. I only go to the track to watch... So 100% of my racing will be on the streets..
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by richieg:
<strong> Turbos are fast super chargers are fast, personally i like superchargers; alot more hardware involved in turbos. But not to badger one or the other, but something you hear a turbo guy say that a super charged guy doesn't at a dead stop. "Hold on dude, Let me build up some boost before we take off first" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry but in a full flogging Supercharged versus Turbo race at the dragstrip you're looking at both guys coming off a transbrake and BOTH trying to build boost. No real difference there.
Now if your talking stop light racing with the turbo guy using a huge turbo then yeah I can see your point. However if the guy has a turbo that big.....well he'll be passing your door pretty quickly. Plus don't get confused with the lag that a 4 or 6 may see on the street. The V8 will surprise you on how quickly it spools the turbo(s). I came out REAL easy out of the hole at the track and saw 10PSI almost instantly. These were with a medium size set of twins. The large twins should provide more lag from a non-transbrake launch but nothing too crazy.
Vince, remember one thing on the gearing...Turbos like load. There's a balancing act between load and gearing on the turbo setup.
<strong> Turbos are fast super chargers are fast, personally i like superchargers; alot more hardware involved in turbos. But not to badger one or the other, but something you hear a turbo guy say that a super charged guy doesn't at a dead stop. "Hold on dude, Let me build up some boost before we take off first" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry but in a full flogging Supercharged versus Turbo race at the dragstrip you're looking at both guys coming off a transbrake and BOTH trying to build boost. No real difference there.
Now if your talking stop light racing with the turbo guy using a huge turbo then yeah I can see your point. However if the guy has a turbo that big.....well he'll be passing your door pretty quickly. Plus don't get confused with the lag that a 4 or 6 may see on the street. The V8 will surprise you on how quickly it spools the turbo(s). I came out REAL easy out of the hole at the track and saw 10PSI almost instantly. These were with a medium size set of twins. The large twins should provide more lag from a non-transbrake launch but nothing too crazy.
Vince, remember one thing on the gearing...Turbos like load. There's a balancing act between load and gearing on the turbo setup.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dug:
<strong> Im not bashing. I hope Mike doesnt take it that way. His first combo was fast and it still had some untapped potential. I was just jokin a little bit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't take it as a bashing... just a lil rain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I think I needed slicks to get any quicker, and a higher stall. But, the SY3500 was great for racing off the track... my best compromise. And Ii still like being quick on the street. TOO much torque is detrimental on the street... you just can't hook all that up unless you managed to put on a REALLY tall tire!
I did the 1.63 on BFG DR's. I doubt anybody is going to cut much better 60' than that with BFG DR's.
<strong> Im not bashing. I hope Mike doesnt take it that way. His first combo was fast and it still had some untapped potential. I was just jokin a little bit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't take it as a bashing... just a lil rain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I think I needed slicks to get any quicker, and a higher stall. But, the SY3500 was great for racing off the track... my best compromise. And Ii still like being quick on the street. TOO much torque is detrimental on the street... you just can't hook all that up unless you managed to put on a REALLY tall tire!
I did the 1.63 on BFG DR's. I doubt anybody is going to cut much better 60' than that with BFG DR's.
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dug:
<strong> Im not bashing. I hope Mike doesnt take it that way. His first combo was fast and it still had some untapped potential. I was just jokin a little bit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't take it as a bashing... just a lil rain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool. Good luck with the 422 setup. Its gonna run 9's right?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by dug:
<strong> Im not bashing. I hope Mike doesnt take it that way. His first combo was fast and it still had some untapped potential. I was just jokin a little bit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't take it as a bashing... just a lil rain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool. Good luck with the 422 setup. Its gonna run 9's right?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
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From: Barto PA
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Hmm Ill take my 1.81 60 on street tires running 11.4s at 124mph. I think turbos and s/c would run alot closer times if the turbo had less tuning problems. But I take ether one any day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> .
<small>[ February 13, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Cool28 ]</small>
<small>[ February 13, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Cool28 ]</small>
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Vince, there's an ATI procharged LS1 Z28 running around ATL. With a B1 cam, and otherwise stock motor on 6 psi(i think) he's trapping 127 mph.
Couple of LT1's are north of 650 rwhp, and trapping 138-140 with 355's and V-2's.
Supercharged cars trap great, if you can get them to stay together longer than 3 passes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Josh
Couple of LT1's are north of 650 rwhp, and trapping 138-140 with 355's and V-2's.
Supercharged cars trap great, if you can get them to stay together longer than 3 passes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Josh
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From: Valrico, Florida
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. 3 passes..? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
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Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Cool28:
<strong>I think turbos and s/c would run alot closer times if the turbo had less tuning problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What ARE you talking about??????
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
SC
<strong>I think turbos and s/c would run alot closer times if the turbo had less tuning problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What ARE you talking about??????
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
SC
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. Faster MPH i've done was a 121 running a 12.01 with a 1.9 60ft.. On my 1-2 shift I started to get squirly but stayed in it and let it hook back up.. Right now im normally seeing 120 mph traps at 11.8s.
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From: Forced Induction Heaven
Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. I need to visit this forum more like I used to when it was LS1.com. I am Shinobi'sZ now on the Corvette forum. It is nice to see some discussion over here and not everybody acting like little bitches.
I was at the dragstrip this weekend. I have a 01 Z06 with a forged 346 (9:55:1 CR) ATI D1/SC, 224 CompXer Cam, LT Headers...etc..making 609/545 RWHP/RWTQ (redline is @6K rpm..I need bigger injectors..48's are on the way.)
The comment of S/C cars needing gears is correct..I am throwing in a set of 3:90's to use with my CCW Drag Setup..this will effectively keep the car in the upper rpm range. I think you can never have enough gear unless it is causing you to shift at some not efficient place.
Look at Cartek's H&C setups with 4:10 gears...an FBody wheelstanded at the BPP Shootout with this combo..and quite a few of Carteks cars are low 11's hi 10's with this package.
I have never told anybody to let me build up boost before I take off at a light..I can spin my 335's throuh 4th gear..so it is about throttle management. I am making 12-15lbs of boost..and my torque is 500 @ 4200 rpms and peaks at 545 at 5500 rpms it stays level from there on up to 6000 rpms..as soon as I get the larger injectors I can tune it to run at 6800 rpms...it should make another 40-50 RWHP...we will see...but good post over here.
I was at the dragstrip this weekend. I have a 01 Z06 with a forged 346 (9:55:1 CR) ATI D1/SC, 224 CompXer Cam, LT Headers...etc..making 609/545 RWHP/RWTQ (redline is @6K rpm..I need bigger injectors..48's are on the way.)
The comment of S/C cars needing gears is correct..I am throwing in a set of 3:90's to use with my CCW Drag Setup..this will effectively keep the car in the upper rpm range. I think you can never have enough gear unless it is causing you to shift at some not efficient place.
Look at Cartek's H&C setups with 4:10 gears...an FBody wheelstanded at the BPP Shootout with this combo..and quite a few of Carteks cars are low 11's hi 10's with this package.
I have never told anybody to let me build up boost before I take off at a light..I can spin my 335's throuh 4th gear..so it is about throttle management. I am making 12-15lbs of boost..and my torque is 500 @ 4200 rpms and peaks at 545 at 5500 rpms it stays level from there on up to 6000 rpms..as soon as I get the larger injectors I can tune it to run at 6800 rpms...it should make another 40-50 RWHP...we will see...but good post over here.
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Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. So if getting and keeping boost is the better world, why is ther not more roots type blown cars out there and little R&D on them?
Scott
Scott
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Re: Lets talk MPH between SC'd and Turbo setups.. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by purevilss:
<strong> So if getting and keeping boost is the better world, why is ther not more roots type blown cars out there and little R&D on them?
Scott </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Roots blowers are not very effiecient compared to turbo or centrical(sp) blowers. They heat the air up alot. Plus depending on the power you want, a GOOD SIZE roots blower would not fit under many aftermarket hoods. Turbos, and centrifical blowers are more efficient.
Screw type blowers look like roots, but are more effecient, but still, a nice size unit would most likely stick through the hood.
Then you get into the throttle body issue. Draw through or not.......
Intercooler setup, for blowers like those is not as "simple" either.
<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Rpm2800 ]</small>
<strong> So if getting and keeping boost is the better world, why is ther not more roots type blown cars out there and little R&D on them?
Scott </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Roots blowers are not very effiecient compared to turbo or centrical(sp) blowers. They heat the air up alot. Plus depending on the power you want, a GOOD SIZE roots blower would not fit under many aftermarket hoods. Turbos, and centrifical blowers are more efficient.
Screw type blowers look like roots, but are more effecient, but still, a nice size unit would most likely stick through the hood.
Then you get into the throttle body issue. Draw through or not.......
Intercooler setup, for blowers like those is not as "simple" either.
<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Rpm2800 ]</small>