turbo oil system information
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,018
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From: Virginia
turbo oil system information specifically, is it possible to damage a turbo with too much oil pressure?
i'd like to read up on this if anyone has any good sites etc.
the turbo i got has worn out in about 1k miles from what the best we can come up with is higher than tested oil pressure.
the ls1m prototype kits were on stock oil pump cars, and worked great from what im told.. but has never worked correctly on my are ported pump.
rob changed the return system back to the way the turbotech kit in an effort to work out of the box on a wider variety of combinations, just not quite in time to save my turbo.. so now i have to get it rebuilt.. and i want to make sure i understand what happend to this one so i can prevent it from happening again.
i'll post some pics of the oily mess tomorrow.
<small>[ April 07, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: MIGHTYMOUSE ]</small>
i'd like to read up on this if anyone has any good sites etc.
the turbo i got has worn out in about 1k miles from what the best we can come up with is higher than tested oil pressure.
the ls1m prototype kits were on stock oil pump cars, and worked great from what im told.. but has never worked correctly on my are ported pump.
rob changed the return system back to the way the turbotech kit in an effort to work out of the box on a wider variety of combinations, just not quite in time to save my turbo.. so now i have to get it rebuilt.. and i want to make sure i understand what happend to this one so i can prevent it from happening again.
i'll post some pics of the oily mess tomorrow.
<small>[ April 07, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: MIGHTYMOUSE ]</small>
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Virginia
Re: turbo oil system information thanks, im changing from about a 3/8 return which entered the bottom of the tank to a 1/2 inch retur entering above the oil line.
you think i should still restrict the supply line to .050 or leave it at .2?
you think i should still restrict the supply line to .050 or leave it at .2?
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From: Las Cruces, NM
Re: turbo oil system information Yes diffently if you have two much oil pressure you can mess up the seals causing oil leakage (external/internal), bearing/sleeve damage and oil into the compressor side. Most turbo do not want more 35 psig. The garrett ones used on the Incon kit had flow control orifices built into them (from garrett). That way on yo could run off the ls1 pressure with no problem. Several people running ARE ported oil pumps blew through the seals because of the high pressure (this was on the gtbb series turbo. Since ARE and the people with the turbos did not know this was a problem they spent a lot of time and money figuring it out instead of asking. Anyway they have to add a smaller flow control orifice to get the right pressure.
How bad or if they leak depends on the type of seal used on the turbo some have static and some have dynamic seals. So call up somebody like PTE or turbonetics. They can give you all the details like that.
So most likely its your ARE pump causing the turbo to fail.
Also you need to keep a minimum amount of oil flow to the turbos. I am not sure how much that is for the larger turbos (do a search or call). For the gtbb2535 its around .45 gallons/min. Thats just based off my calculations but is in line with other small frame turbos. A big T76 would probably have twice that much.
Gary
<small>[ April 07, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: red ws6 99 ]</small>
How bad or if they leak depends on the type of seal used on the turbo some have static and some have dynamic seals. So call up somebody like PTE or turbonetics. They can give you all the details like that.
So most likely its your ARE pump causing the turbo to fail.
Also you need to keep a minimum amount of oil flow to the turbos. I am not sure how much that is for the larger turbos (do a search or call). For the gtbb2535 its around .45 gallons/min. Thats just based off my calculations but is in line with other small frame turbos. A big T76 would probably have twice that much.
Gary
<small>[ April 07, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: red ws6 99 ]</small>
Re: turbo oil system information I've been running into excessive oil pressure seeping past the seals forever... I can never seem to get the return line correct to get all the oil out.. I restricted the inlet of the turbo to .106" and it sort of helps.. I dont think any damage will result to the turbo with high oil psi, just alot of oil in the exhaust and intake..
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,018
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From: Virginia
Re: turbo oil system information tcharged, you are using a 3/8" gravity drain to the driver front corner of the pan and a .106 restriction..
i went from a .05 to a .042 and it didnt seem to help at all
but my return went to the oil drain plug hole
im thinking about running the .05 restriction still when i drain to above the oil level.. just to drop the psi... instead of the .25 called by turbotech on the stock oil pump (even though i have the ls1m kit)
i went from a .05 to a .042 and it didnt seem to help at all
but my return went to the oil drain plug hole
im thinking about running the .05 restriction still when i drain to above the oil level.. just to drop the psi... instead of the .25 called by turbotech on the stock oil pump (even though i have the ls1m kit)
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Wallingford, CT
Re: turbo oil system information </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by red ws6 99:
<strong> For the gtbb2535 its around .45 gallons/min. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can't mean .45/min.? Is it .45/hour, or .045/min., or something like that?
<strong> For the gtbb2535 its around .45 gallons/min. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can't mean .45/min.? Is it .45/hour, or .045/min., or something like that?
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Indianapolis, IN
Re: turbo oil system information Dave, I use a -6an supply (3/8") and a -10AN return (5/8") to the pan.
Ive not had any issues with the oiling so far. Ive also got a remote mounted oil filter inline very close to the turbo so that there is a small reservoir of oil when the engine turns over so that it doesnt run dry.
Good luck.
Check these links for some photos
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gu...tracing010.jpg
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gu...tracing013.jpg
Ive not had any issues with the oiling so far. Ive also got a remote mounted oil filter inline very close to the turbo so that there is a small reservoir of oil when the engine turns over so that it doesnt run dry.
Good luck.
Check these links for some photos
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gu...tracing010.jpg
http://www.hustonstreetracing.com/gu...tracing013.jpg
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Virginia
Re: turbo oil system information i agree with your responses and thanks for them
i was told by ls1m that running the return as supplied initially was find for a stock oil pump car.. returning to the drain plug hole, well below the oil level line. you guys are clearly disagreeing with this layout as well. i was told it was 'reservoir' style
i of course had a problem with this and now am getting charged $xxx to have the brand new turbo rebuilt.
are you also agreeing that ported oil pump or not, having the return not drain to above the oil line could easily have caused my problem that burnt up the turbo because it just cannot drain correctly in that configuration.
the line is allready -10, im just moving it to above the oil line now.. any pros or cons to putting it on the side of the pan as opposed to the turbotec location of the front corner?
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: MIGHTYMOUSE ]</small>
i was told by ls1m that running the return as supplied initially was find for a stock oil pump car.. returning to the drain plug hole, well below the oil level line. you guys are clearly disagreeing with this layout as well. i was told it was 'reservoir' style
i of course had a problem with this and now am getting charged $xxx to have the brand new turbo rebuilt.
are you also agreeing that ported oil pump or not, having the return not drain to above the oil line could easily have caused my problem that burnt up the turbo because it just cannot drain correctly in that configuration.
the line is allready -10, im just moving it to above the oil line now.. any pros or cons to putting it on the side of the pan as opposed to the turbotec location of the front corner?
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: MIGHTYMOUSE ]</small>
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From: Las Cruces, NM
Re: turbo oil system information As long as the oil drain is above the liquid level at all times then it should be good. For slosh caused by accelation the front is not to bad, sides should work also.
Gary
Gary
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From: Chi-Town
Re: turbo oil system information think of an oil return line outta a blower or turbo like an intercooler, the bigger the better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
also never put the oil return line at the level of the oil, you always want it higher.
Think about it this way:
Think about a glass of water with a straw. You have the straw in the glass of water and put your finger over the top of the straw and pull it out. Then you take your finger off the top of the straw and what happens? Water drains back into the glass via gravity. Now do the same thing again but instead of holding it above the level of the water, put the straw back in the glass and let go, what happens? Doesn't really drain does it? Get the idea? So you if the line with the level of the oil you have the potential for the oil to start seeping back up the oil return line. Then it becomes super hot and then when you shut it down it gets all coaked up and you start to have turbo issues
go to either a -8 or -10 return line and make sure it is as downward of an angle as possible and put it either above the sump in the rear of the pan or right at the front corners of the oil pan
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: JimmyKash ]</small>
also never put the oil return line at the level of the oil, you always want it higher.
Think about it this way:
Think about a glass of water with a straw. You have the straw in the glass of water and put your finger over the top of the straw and pull it out. Then you take your finger off the top of the straw and what happens? Water drains back into the glass via gravity. Now do the same thing again but instead of holding it above the level of the water, put the straw back in the glass and let go, what happens? Doesn't really drain does it? Get the idea? So you if the line with the level of the oil you have the potential for the oil to start seeping back up the oil return line. Then it becomes super hot and then when you shut it down it gets all coaked up and you start to have turbo issues
go to either a -8 or -10 return line and make sure it is as downward of an angle as possible and put it either above the sump in the rear of the pan or right at the front corners of the oil pan
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: JimmyKash ]</small>
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From: Las Cruces, NM
Re: turbo oil system information Mark, the two turbo combined use just under 1 gallon/min. This is the maximum output of the weldon 9200 I am using is 1 gallon/min. The tiltons were rated at 1 - 2 gpm depending head pressure.
That is why I get really worried about people did not bother to replace the tilton. If it does not keep up or leaks you will cook the motor and turbos.
Gary
That is why I get really worried about people did not bother to replace the tilton. If it does not keep up or leaks you will cook the motor and turbos.
Gary
TECH Senior Member
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Re: turbo oil system information You must always put your oil return line ABOVE the oil level line on the pan otherwise you will have the same problems again, even if a stock oil pump is used. It is a gravity fed system not under pressure (AFAIK).
I have seen this problem in blower cars as well.
Use the biggest return line you can and it is best to weld the fitting to the pan if possible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Good luck!
Chris
I have seen this problem in blower cars as well.
Use the biggest return line you can and it is best to weld the fitting to the pan if possible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Good luck!
Chris
