Vaccume pumps and dry sump oiling...
Vaccume pumps and dry sump oiling... I am a rookie at these and would like any info that anyone is willing to tell. I know that alot of higher hp cars run the vaccume pumps to keep crankcase pressure down and to keep vaccume on the bottom of the rings for sealing.
Then I know alot of guys run sumps for higher rpm motors and so that they dont lose pressure on big launches.
I also know both of them are expensive and I want to know if I should run them with my set-up, expecting 1500 flywheel hp out of my 408.Any general/technical info would be great.
Anthony
Then I know alot of guys run sumps for higher rpm motors and so that they dont lose pressure on big launches.
I also know both of them are expensive and I want to know if I should run them with my set-up, expecting 1500 flywheel hp out of my 408.Any general/technical info would be great.
Anthony
The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
If you are running a dry sump all the scavenges on the pan will create the vacuum you need. In rarer cases you could run a third or fourth stage to the top side of the motor. But, you should be able to draw enough vacuum on a 3 stage in the pan.
The vacuum pump setup without a dry sump would work. From a cost perspective ball park the dry sump to run 3k by the time you get all the parts you need. The vacuum pump setup can be built for under 1k. For a 1500 HP motor that is going to be raced quite a bit you would be far better off and safer to run the dry sump to make sure that you never have any oiling problems.
The vacuum pump setup without a dry sump would work. From a cost perspective ball park the dry sump to run 3k by the time you get all the parts you need. The vacuum pump setup can be built for under 1k. For a 1500 HP motor that is going to be raced quite a bit you would be far better off and safer to run the dry sump to make sure that you never have any oiling problems.
Is a aftermarket pump not going to be good enough at those power levels? I heard about you guys using the mellings in the white car, I thought? I dont plan on going solid roller, and dont plan on having to spin the motor past 7k. I wont be taking the car to the track as most would think, it will see more street time turned down. TIA,
The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
It's a point where you are on the bubble. The issue isn't really the pump as much as it is the pickup. The oil wants to climb out of the pan. So, you really need a pan with more baffles and a really well submerged pickup. You could put in a external pump and weld in bungs on the stock pan to have something close to a dry sump as far as function goes.
Theres quite a bit of difference between the behavior of a 1500 HP car and a 1000 HP car. As the short times go down the more aggressive the oil wants to get out of the pan. You could possibly try running a Moroso oil pan with some better baffles in it.
Theres quite a bit of difference between the behavior of a 1500 HP car and a 1000 HP car. As the short times go down the more aggressive the oil wants to get out of the pan. You could possibly try running a Moroso oil pan with some better baffles in it.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
people over here in the uk using SBC's in mid engined kit cars offten have problems with oilling, or the lack of it!!! people often think its in cornering that problems can occur, or doing high G starts, and this is true! but most of the guys have problems under bracking (ok less of an isuue in a drag car where it would be the other way around). as said aboce, the oil climbs up the pan and away from the pick up! and it doesn't take longbefore you can say bye-bye engiune!!!
one of the ways to get around it is to install a Aquasump! basically a few pints of oil stored under engine presure. as soon as the engine presure drops the Aquasump deposits its content into the oil system giving oil presure for a short period!
IMO a dry sump is definatly the safest bet!! but there are things to concider! you gona need a BIG seperartion tank (dry sumps pull air as well as oil from the sump and this mixture is not a great lubricant). i think its about twice the cappacity of the amount of oil you use! then there is piping and routing the oil to and from the tank (normaly at the back of the car) as well as several over things (like driving the thing).
Still, if it works for racers, then why not?????
thanks Chris.
one of the ways to get around it is to install a Aquasump! basically a few pints of oil stored under engine presure. as soon as the engine presure drops the Aquasump deposits its content into the oil system giving oil presure for a short period!
IMO a dry sump is definatly the safest bet!! but there are things to concider! you gona need a BIG seperartion tank (dry sumps pull air as well as oil from the sump and this mixture is not a great lubricant). i think its about twice the cappacity of the amount of oil you use! then there is piping and routing the oil to and from the tank (normaly at the back of the car) as well as several over things (like driving the thing).
Still, if it works for racers, then why not?????
thanks Chris.
Originally Posted by DERTY
It's a point where you are on the bubble. The issue isn't really the pump as much as it is the pickup. The oil wants to climb out of the pan. So, you really need a pan with more baffles and a really well submerged pickup. You could put in a external pump and weld in bungs on the stock pan to have something close to a dry sump as far as function goes.
Theres quite a bit of difference between the behavior of a 1500 HP car and a 1000 HP car. As the short times go down the more aggressive the oil wants to get out of the pan. You could possibly try running a Moroso oil pan with some better baffles in it.
Theres quite a bit of difference between the behavior of a 1500 HP car and a 1000 HP car. As the short times go down the more aggressive the oil wants to get out of the pan. You could possibly try running a Moroso oil pan with some better baffles in it.
Anthony
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Launching!
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 275
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From: Bardonia, NY
Originally Posted by black98ws6ta
So what about running a canton oil pan?
Originally Posted by black98ws6ta
Just not enough? Do you mind explaining how a good true sump system is supposed to work? I am guessing you remove the ls1 style pump completely and run a tube that feeds where the stock pump does.
Originally Posted by black98ws6ta
Then you have pump that sucks the oil out from the pan, back into the motor. I am assuming there is a resivor of some kind to keep more oil in the system?
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Verdad Gallardo The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Anthony,
You pretty much summed it up. There essentially is a multistage external pump. One stage pulls from the tank and feeds the motor. Typically it's fed through one of the oil ports in the block. There are three decent spots to get the oil into the motor. The pan is a very flat pan with no real holding capacity. Some cars run two to three scavenges off that pan. The pump returns oil to the tank. You can feed the turbo off the primary feed to the motor.
Doing the oil this way will definitely make sure that there is enough oil volume and pressure under race conditions. A Canton or Moroso pan would work, but it would need baffles in it. Then you would need to put a vacuum pump on the as well.
You pretty much summed it up. There essentially is a multistage external pump. One stage pulls from the tank and feeds the motor. Typically it's fed through one of the oil ports in the block. There are three decent spots to get the oil into the motor. The pan is a very flat pan with no real holding capacity. Some cars run two to three scavenges off that pan. The pump returns oil to the tank. You can feed the turbo off the primary feed to the motor.
Doing the oil this way will definitely make sure that there is enough oil volume and pressure under race conditions. A Canton or Moroso pan would work, but it would need baffles in it. Then you would need to put a vacuum pump on the as well.
