cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

just recreate the incon kit with a few improvements...i KNOW the small turbos can do 700+ on a 346...i dunno what the larger ones could do but if they'd do 900rwhp, thats enuff for this kit and let them movie on to something like a TTi racekit. Send me the larger Incon type turbos and i'll test the limit for ya

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

Ed, I am just trying to understand how a low cost relaible turbo kit can be constructed for the F body. To my way of thinking high quailty gasoline turbochargers and exhaust manifolding is absolutely paramount for high performance and component durability. Maybe guys could skimp/save on the quality of other turbo system ancillaries to save cost and that would be the area imho to save cost, not on the turbochargers or exhaust manifolds.

Merry Xmas

Peter

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

That turbocharger started life as a cast turbine housing though clearly other parts of the housing are hand fabricated in SS sheet metal.

Peter

69firebird

iTrader: (14)

Peter,

Ill be honest, if I knew how to produce a reliable turbo kit, that was inexpensive, and perfect in everyway, i wouldnt be on here asking you to do it, idve already done it.

I do think it may be possible, just not profitable.
the only way to make it plausable is to find a turbo that is somewhat inexpensve. and until the turbo fairy makes that for us, we are all prolly out of luck.

we all know first hand what happens when you make these kits affordable, you go out of business
ed

V8_DSM_V8again

EDIT Actually not even the wastegate tube just the V-band part is welded so its not even tube its a CNC billet V band plate. The discoloration from the old TIGger shows the only weld on it.



The rest is cast 310 stainless steel.. A high quality 310 casting is alot easier to weld to then some crappy porous CGI.. CGI is imposible to weld.. HQ Cast 310 is pretty easy.

Look at the turbo models on the list.. Fp secret..... Fp3065 There are ALOT of these turbine housing out there many running both a two step and N20 for spool... They get pounded.. I have never in 5 years of working with there stuff and talking to people all over the country heard of a FP30 series turbine housing fail.. Never ever ever... Even a two step revlimiter set at 4500 rpm on an already glowing hot turbine housing cant even kill it..

http://www.dsmtimes.org/times.php?Page=1

http://www.forcedperformance.net/hall.aspx

Sorry dude but these guys build their turbine housings like APS does their manifolds if not better with the use of 310 SS instead of CGI.

XJGPN

I agree, but not completely. Most people wouldn't be going with the super cool BB/water cooled turbos. They would want to get a set of manifolds that they could bolt a pair of $600 Master Power Turbos to. As cool as the BB race is... most of us won't notice the difference. At the end of the day, what will make more power, your awesome top of the line T28, or a MP
T3/T4? The T3/T4 will make more power and cost 1/2 to 1/3 of your T28's. Will they be more laggy, absolutely. On an LS1 does that matter at all... absolutely not. Your thinking with the corvette, bolt it on and be done with it mentality. With the F-body set... even if everything works fine, it's all going to get changed/modified next off-season... it's just what we do. Ask 69firebird in this thread how many turbo kits he has owned so far. How many setups have Harlan, Candlebandit, Mightymouse gone through. These manifolds would allow us to bolt on turbos... this wouldn't be a bolt it on and be done with it affair... no point in treating it like it will be.

Wet 1

iTrader: (4)

I fail to see why you guys are bickering over how easy it should be to build a nice, reliable, and cheap TT system that can provide 900 hp. If you feel this is the case, prove us wrong and start mass producing these $5000 TT kits... You guys can frolic in all your riches and post a 1000 "I told you so's" when you do.

Best of luck guys!

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

Fair comment, fact is I don't believe it's posssible unless the system is made from inferior materials.
Well if it's not profitable than it's not dificult to understand why any business tie up many thousands of $$$$ for no return on capitol invested, it simply makes no business sense.
I reckon you hit the nail on the head with that statement.
That's entirely possible and why there's very few manufactures making high quality production turbo systems in the US, if it can't be successful in the US market than it won't be successful anywhere on the planet.

Peter

V8_DSM_V8again

Thats why you just make a set of manifolds that use existing off the shelf turbos that are very available and in demand for other applications.

The manifold is just the LS1 adapter for existing aftermarket fitments..

Why re-invent the wheel... Just a manifold to make other things a bolt on affair..

Plumbing the outlet and the wastgate would be easy on that turbine housing..

Its a $1,299 turbo each but given a bb chra, anti surge porting and a v-band SS housing its alot for the money compaired to the same thing at $1200 in a garret turbine housing.

http://linux.forcedperformance.net/m...Code=DSM-Turbo

69firebird

iTrader: (14)

If the cars/engine/platform, was in europe it may be successful, they dont seem to worry about cash as much as quality.

We are the supersized, cheaper when possible, country. Others are willing to pay
ed

XJGPN

I hate to agree with him, but if you really are adamant about not using a T3 flange (is a T3 turbine housing really *that* much larger than a T28?) then a mitsu flange would probably be a better option than a T28. Mitsu turbos are very affordable and available over here. I really can't even begin to say how much more desirable the T3 flanged manifold would be... but if it is just a no-go, the mitsu would work. The F-body crowd is going to look at the following:

HP/Dollar
Does it keep AC.
Ease of maintenance (spark plug access etc.)
Ease of finding replacement parts.

The T28 turbo will limit HP.
The BB turbos will add $1,000 to the project with no increase in max HP.
Keeping AC and ease of maintenance will sell people on the Cast iron exhaust manifolds.
custom Compressor covers and turbine housings like the Incon used will limit desirability.

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

Again and with respect I would not use or recommend that modified fabricated turbine housing/turbocharger, for a little more money you could use a genuine Garrett GT series dual ball bearing turbocharger with inconel wheels and NiResist turbine housing.

Peter

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

Point well made and thanks for your thoughts. I reckon it would be very possible for guys to build a fairly cost effective intercooled TT system by doing lots of the work themselves though the turbochargers and exhaust manifolding is not the area to skimp on quality imho.

Peter

Brains

iTrader: (7)

This thread pretty much spells out *why* folks are looking for a manifold option -- some would opt for cheaper turbos and risk/plan for replacement to get something on their car quickly. Others want the flexibility to build the kit as they see fit, but want the durability of a cast manifold. Others want a complete, top-quality kit. All can use the same manifolds. Some (like myself) are willing to wait a bit longer to save up for the "right" equipment the first time. I'm not a wealthy man, but I am a patient one. Do I feel I *need* inconel (wheels, tubing, or otherwise)? It depends on the project. Do I need water cooling? Ball bearing CHRA? Depends on the application. I've already started acquiring parts to do a single turbo setup on my LS1 Mustang project, but I would even give these manifolds a shot on that car and sell the T76 I have.

Also, Peter, I'm still interested in working with you on the GTO kit we had been speaking about. Lets pick up again after the holiday craziness is over.

jdueck

A few observations...

1) Regarding turbo choices: You get what you pay for. It may be tempting to look at cheap turbo ads on eBay and dream "what if", but it would be less expensive and painful in the long run to show some patience/discipline and save up for quality parts. The new GT-series turbos would be great, jurassic T3/T4 turbos would do, but this is not the place to look for bargains (or a visit from the Turbo Fairy). :-)

2) Frankly, if someone only has $1500 once in a blue moon, they should NOT be thinking about going turbo. Tuning and support parts costs money too. However, if they manage to save $5000 for the project and can back that up with a solid credit card, then the games can begin. ;-)

3) Remember that the reason people want cast manifolds (the main reason this thread exists) is their reliability. They're NOT going to fail. IMO it makes no sense to apply that standard of quality to the manifolds and fail to apply it to the other components in your kit. What's next? Junkyard intercoolers from a 1G DSM?

Food for thought. Merry Xmas,
---Jason

XJGPN

I just want to clarify my position on this. I am not saying that these should be used with cheap SSautochrome or comparable turbos. I am just saying that if you just copy the Incon manifolds exactly which used a Custom T28 sized turbo that will be EXTREMELY difficult to obtain, will cost $3,600 a pair, and will be COMPLETELY maxed out at 750rwhp, never mind how far out of their "efficiency range" they are. Look at compressor maps for T28 turbos. At the low pressure ratios we would be running them at, they are out of their peak efficiency range at around 400 CRANK HP for the pair. Ignore the claims about people using them in 2.0 liter cars for 400+ peak crank HP individually... Those are at much higher pressure ratios, and the turbos are not running efficiently at that consumption level. You are right about getting what you pay for... but at the same time, it is much less cost effective to try to make an undersized turbo live well beyond it's design intent requiring custom turbine housings, custom compressor housings, the best/most current CHRA etc... when a properly sized T3/T4 is much more readily available and doesn't require as much $$$customization$$$. A BB race will not make a T28 based turbo make more power than a properly sized non-BB T3/T4. A T28 just can not move as much air, and that is all there is to it. So it adds insult to injury that you are spending a ton of money on a turbo that STILL can't feed then engine efficiently because it just plain is not capable of moving that much air. I like the APS kits, but I think using the T28 flange will make it more of a novelty than a useful product.

slow

iTrader: (7)

OEM quality and reliability, using factory parts, or parts built to OEM specs, will typically have a good reliability.

Using "junk" 1G DSM parts, have good reliability, and for under 600 rwhp, 10psi, would probaly be a decent unit for twin intercooler setup. I would prefer to find some Supra sidemounts to use, for a low cost, decent performing unit on a budget.

Ryan



Ryan

spanktu

iTrader: (19)

I would like to know if using a pair of factory GN turbos and intercoolers would work on a twin application?

V8_DSM_V8again

You have'nt a clue about those turbos do you?

It was custom cast not modified or fabricated..

It is a genuine garret GT series dual bb CHRA...

If you read about how its volute was designed specifically for a t3 turbine wheel..

Guess what? They even have used it to make full T4 based turbos.. From a T4 compressor, CHRA to the turbine wheel..





Some turbos like the FP30 series turbine housing may have the mitsu bolt pattern on the inlet but thats where the similarity to the mitsu turbine housing ends...

So other than the distance between the flange holes its a garret based design... With improvements.


FP3575 67mm GT40 compressor T4 CHRA Gt37 turbine wheel 750 hp per turbo. (1500hp)

FP3065 Typical GT35R 650hp per turbo (1300hp)

FP3052 GT30R 520hp per turbo (1040hp)



For really cheap people they could run Mitsu 16G, 18G or 20G turbos on the larger 8cm^2 thru 10cm^2 housings..

peter@aps

iTrader: (2)

The pic you showed yesterday is a highly modified cast/fabricated turbine housing, no way is that turbine housing a one piece casting, it part cast and part fabricated imo.

Merry Xmas