That, and it really frightens the **** out of me that ATI doesn't actually test their compressor performance. From a compressor engineering standpoint, the ATI wheels are waaaaay old technology - like 1940's. For that matter, the Vortech wheels are still not up to date, maybe more like 1960's, but much better.

And, yes, there are some fast cars with ATI's on them. That doesn't mean anything. There are fast cars with stock heads, fast cars with FlowMasters, fast cars with v-6's, etc. . . a car can be fast because of a component, or in spite of the component.

 

Mike,

What would be a good example of a modern impeller? Is it vastly different from the "60's" Vortech? What are they benefits? Are we talking 10% deltas or 2-3% incremental improvements?

Is there any site or book that you might recommend for the semi-technical (not a compressor engineer) to read?

Thanks,

Jim

 

The highest efficiencies occur when you design the impeller with shockless entry, the right combination of axial and centrifugal compression (i.e. mixed flow), and minimal velocity change through the compressor. To see examples of modern impellers, look to the turbocharger world or Vortech's YSi and X trim's. The old Vortech A-trim compressors are around 60% efficiency, while the newer S and T trim's are around 72 - 73%. The YSi is 78% and the X is 79%. Just about all turbochargers are in the 76 - 79% range, which represents nearly the max possible efficiency for the Rp and flow rates we run in. Though ATI doesn't have compressor maps, expect the straight-vaned P-600B to be below 60%.

Hmmm. . . when you want to read about compressor performance and optimization, there isn't exactly a "Compressors for Dummies" book out there. Just keep in mind the points I made earlier. I can expand upon each one if you have questions.

 

Mike,

Not to be a party pooper, but I think you need to take a look at that T-76 wheel of yours, and compair it to something like a F1-C from procharger. I think you might be suprised.....honestly, I have done it.

Also just cause some technology is old, doesn't make it bad. Look at your solid axle in your car.... or the leaf springs that corvettes still use. Kinda goes back to the "if it's not broke, don't fix it"

I know your engineer and sadly thats what I went to school for as well. But to hear another person say that "they have never heard of a turbo failing because of debris" are you kidding me???

GN people for YEARS have put filters before their turbo's to save them.
Think what happens when blowesr fail, or turbo's fail and the parts come back to the pan of the car? Your either spending the day on your back with a magnet hoping you can get it all.... or your pulling the pan. What if you pop a head gasket, or your lifting a head under boost, and your filling the oil with coolant. Bearings in blowers and turbo's don't really like being fed water and antifreeze through them.

There are Self Contained Turbo's..... just so you know as well.

Happy posting,
EA

 

Some good books are Centrifugal Compressor Design and Performance by David Japikse and Compressor Aerodynamics by N.A. Cumpsty. If you can buy them used on Amazon, might be worth your while.

Mike

 

I have. The T-76 has a greater axial compression component.

When peak efficiencies have increased from 60% to 79%, then maybe the old technology isn't "bad", but it's definitely not as good.

One of my very good friends has owned and raced 7 turbo Buicks incuding a Turbo T/A for the last 15 years, running as quick as 10.20 at 137. He does not use a filter on his oil supply and I don't use one on mine.

About 1 month ago, I totally smoked a motor. I was pulling hadfulls of debris out of my oil pan. I checked out the oil supply line to the turbo and flushed the turbo and there was NO DEBRIS IN IT. WHY? BECUASE IT'S ALREADY FILTERED.

Once again. . . call me crazy, but I've never failed a blower, nor do I know anyone who has (Vortech's, at least). Not that it doesn't happen, but I'd say that failures are pretty rare, and failures that spit debris out the drain line are even rarer. Even still, there is a screen on the oil pump pickup as well as an oil filter to catch the debris in the case that this happens.

Well neither do engine main bearings, for that matter. Just how long do you run your car with water in the oil???

Ah, yes, the great Aerocharger. What a POS. They're currently being sued over the reliability of their "self-contained" turbochargers. My friend bought a used one for his CBR1100XX. The bearings failed in it. What a shock.

Mike

 

How is the more modern curved P1SC/D1SC impellers, a p600B isnt a very good comparison to anything.

I'm one of the not-few that had an SQ Vortech blow apart, things break, thats how it goes. Does that mean that EVERY vortech sucks, hardly.

I have owned several self contained P!/D1s and I have never had a problem with any of them. Does that mean I think ATIs are the best? no.

I always wanted to drive a train though, I wish I was an engineer

 

Blowers come apart, Turbos come apart... and when they do... stuff goes through the motors. It does not take a ENGINEER to know this.
My motor(s) is(are) worth something to me, to protect it and the power adder means a lot. I don't want turbo, or blower parts going through anything.... not the pan, not the pick up, not the filter. POINT< PERIOD< PARAGRAPH!

Since you "think" turbos and superchargers don't blow up.

Here let me site some sources of Turbos blowing up:
Grab your Feb 2006 issue of "Race Pages Magazine"
And you will see on page 84.... Manny Buginga's blown up turbo.
Manny Buginga is the Current Super Street Outlaw Champion.
And is Sponsored by Turbonetics.

Let me site a source of a person that has had a blower blow up:
From this thread a post or two back from "KP"
"I'm one of the not-few that had an SQ Vortech blow apart"

Stop using big words to sound smart, you know this is a forum and if you speak in logic people will listen no matter how many big words you use or don't use. People don't want to hear "greater axial compression component" Why don't you tell them what that means in normal people terms, if you can.

I have had both wheels sitting side by side so I can tell you I know exactly what is the same, and what is different.

Your posts remind me of the kids in college that really get annoying with "acting" like they know it all, and using large words to scare people into thinking they are smart.

I'm done with this post, I think most can see that I am just posting the facts. I don't care what power adder you have!!! I will just go back into my hole of building magazine cars.

EA

PS: The reason to put a filter on the oil line before the turbo, or blower. Is to keep small debris from clogging the line that feeds the unit. If that tiny tiny tiny hole (in the case of blowers) gets clogged, it starves the bearings for lubrication.

You can't really put to much of a filter after the blower or turbo that has a very fine mesh, because the oil will back up the tube and fill the blower up because it can't drain fast enough. Then when that happens it hydro locks the bearings up because they are trying to turn though the oil. And BOOM, big time failure.

So thus oil return lines, are always open to spill debris into a cars oil pan at anytime. And that is FACT!

I hope everyone followed what I was saying, and I didn't even have to use big words. Have a great evening all, and a wonderfull New year!!!! See you all in 2006!

 

the only reasons ATI's make more power than the Vortech is simply because their compressors blow more cfm's. If the Vortech unit made the same as the ATI it would probably make equal if not more power cause its a more efficient better engineered system.

Even despite the compressor pushing out less power, the Vortechs usually dyno only 20-30hp less at most.

EA you say Mike is coming off like a know it all but your coming off the same way for what its worth. Btw, do you even have a forced induction f body??

opinions are like ******** everyone has one. All I know is Vortech didn't have to re design their kit to make it right even after claiming their was no problems with their first kit..

Its your money spend it wisely.

 

Powerdyne:

Pro's
Less weight
Less heat
Less drag on the engine
Less money
Self lubricated


Con's
Limited power output
Keep a spare belt handy

 

I never said it doesn't happen, just that it doesn't happen often enough to justify giving up 15% adiabatic (oops, there's another big word) efficiency in the compressor.

I'm sorry if my 2 big words are too difficult to understand (I don't consider "axial" a big word). These are the words that I use EVERY DAY in discussing compressor selection and performance at work. I'm not "acting" like I know it all, but when you say you've compared compressor impeller design, I thought you would at least familiar with the terminology. Let me explain what I meant by "axial compression component" so that maybe you'll know what to look for next time you're comparing impellers.

FOR ANYONE INTERESTING IN LEARNING SOMETHING ABOUT COMPRESSOR DESIGN:

Some compressors are pure axial compressors, that is, the air flows parrallel to the shaft (as in a gas turbine). Some compressors are pure centrifugal compressors, where the air flows radially away from the shaft. Axial compressors work well at low pressure ratios and high flows, while centrifugals work well at high pressure ratios and low flows. Most compressors, though, fall somewhere in the middle and are considered "mixed flow". This is also referred to as "specific speed". The more "axial" a compressor is, the higher the specific speed. For every combination of pressure and flow, there is an optimum specific speed, or combination of axial and centrifugal compression, that the compressor should be designed for. This will yield the highest possible efficiency. A T-76 turbocharger does most of its compression in the axial section, while most centrifugal superchargers have lower specific speeds that don't match the requirements of the engine as well, resulting in lower efficiency leading to hotter air and increased power consumption of the compressor.

Once again, the oil passes through my PF35 before it goes to the turbo.

 

The ATI doesn't need cooling of the oil becuase it remains cooler than the crankcase oil during all modes of operation. This is an immediate performance benifit of the self contained design and one of the reasons it was developed. Another reason is that we found that many people were adverse to purchasing and installing a blower kit if they had to punch a hole in their pan for installation. That is difficult to do without contaminating the crankcase with particles not to mention a PITA.

The oil requires no filtration to ensure proper component protection as it not subject to contamination outside of the sealed system.

While I considered addressing some of Mike's statements regarding "efficiency" numbers this isn't my thread to hijack. Suffice it to say, his data presented at far as percentages go are just made up and not based off of real ATI or Vortech data. It should also be mentioned that he has no interest whatsoever in purchasing a belt driven centrifugal supercharger per his statement on CZ28.com. He's just here to stir the pot as far as I can tell.

Thank you for the opportunity to post an opposing view.

http://www.procharger.com/consumer_alert.shtml

 

Lets get back to the question at hand. I wouldn't really care if the technology is 30, 40 or 50 years old. Companies such as ATI and Vortech work their butts off to give us a top quality product. I don't really care if they are axial or centrifugal. Hell, a hamster in a wheel could be spinning it as far as I care, I want something tested, proven and within my budget. I think what I would look for out of the 3 items for selection would fall into a detailed look at as I am also looking into a supercharger:

1. Reliability - no matter on anything else...is this kit going to last me down the road whether I'm a daily driver or weekend racetrack warrior?

2. Effiency - will this kit satisfy my needs for the goals I want to obtain and future upgrades? I want a kit that achieve my results without putting a huge strain on the component that could prematurley end it's life

3. Warranty - If for some ungodly reason something should fail on this would it be covered under the warranty and how long is the warranty...such as ATI has a 3 yr warranty on the P1SC and only a 1 yr on the D1SC head units.

4. Maintenance - I am mechanically inclined but for those that are not what kind of maintenance is required and what would be the difficulty of it?

5. Company history - Is this company going to be here 2, 3 or 10 years from now? Who wants to buy a kit from a company that may not be here 4 years from now and when something needs to be replaced your last ditch effort is to search ebay?

I am personally looking at the ATI D1SC with a front mount intercooler and possibly and alk/meth setup along with it. NO such thing as to much research as I am weighing my options carefully as I only have enough $$$$ to do this once and want to do it right. Good Luck!!

 

Did not realize that about the warranty.

 

i did all my research and i just ordered the ATI D1SC two days ago....

 

Good choice.........the fun starts now. You wont be sorry.

 

1: reliability - ATI's systems are built for reliability and long life. The oil in the SC supercharger line only needs to be changed every 6000 miles. Superchargers contain very few moving parts and those that do have long life expectency.

2:efficiency - Regardless of the manufactuer if you purchase your supercharger with your current and short term future needs in mind you should be satisfied with the results. This of course is assuming your engine size stays fairly close throughout the lifespan and boost levels don't stray around like crazy. Try to keep max blower rpm in the upper 1/3 of its range with all combinations and assuming the airflow delivery of the unit is sufficient you should be happy with the results. There is a blower for most any application available.

3: Warranty - a stock kit from ATI has a 3 year warranty available for the headunit for $49. (non-competition serpentine only) This $49 also includes several bottles of
oil. While the extended warranty is available and I think pretty smart, its not necessary and really is just good insurance, and a good deal on the oil.

4: Maintenence - on an ATI unit the oil should be changed on a street system approx every 6000 miles. The first change should occur at 500 miles. This is simply a drain and refill of the head unit. Idlers should be inspected periodically for play as they are subject to high loading and rpm. Systems that incorporate small diameter idlers are more susceptible to wear as their speed is higher. Most systems incorporate factory type tensioners and are very durable, considering what they must do.

5: ATI has been in business for over 11 years now and is family owned. Knock on wood they plan on being around for a very long time. They have been innovators in the supercharger market during their history and I can tell you they are dedicated to solid engineering and performance. ATI does not use their machine shop for fill in work as they are pleanty busy making components. ATI sells pieces to all of their past systems ( which can get confusing ) to service old systems. As a side note ATI superchargers have a high resale value as can be verified on the net.

I thank you for inviting me to answer some questions you have, that's what your original intent was I know when you started this thread.
I'll be happy to address any further questions you may have while researching your decision.

Mark

 

What about contamination from inside the sealed system? The gears and bearings in the supercharger produce wear particles which are just circulated right back through the gears and bearings? Is there a filter inside the Procharger?

All of those numbers were NOT made up. Every single one was taken from a compressor map published by the manufacturer, except the P-600B number which I preceded with "expect" and based off of similar designs. I would LOVE to quote actual efficiency numbers of the Prochargers except Procharger doesn't publish compressor maps!

You are correct, as I have no intent to purchase a centrifugal supercharger. My goal is to get people to think beyond what is advertised to them.

For instance, the following appears on the STS website: "Turbo systems . . . don't take power from the engine to make power." Mr. Andereck, I'm sure you would disagree with this statement.

I don't know about you, but (from Vortech's site) "specially formed polypropylene plastic inlet ducts for minimum restriction and superior fit" certainly doesn't describe the drier duct that came with my old T-trim.

And when Procharger finally decided to test Vortech head-to-head, we read "The goal was to utilize a standardized test protocol and systematically catalog the results in an unbiased report" followed by "compare three Intercooled ProCharger systems against Vortech’s non-intercooled kits". To me, standardized means you would test intercooled Prochargers to intercooled Vortech's. Now THAT'S what I would find interesting. Apples and oranges, you know?

Mike

 

Vortech for many years stated that intercoolers (aftercoolers) were not needed. I am going to assume that is why ATI compared their intercooler included kits against Vortechs non intercooled kits. Bob

 

EPP I hope what you are saying is a fact otherwise that is a direct lie and slander and you may open yourself up to a lawsuit. There is nothing printed based off the statement you just gave..You don't see anything about Vortech recommending a kit without charge cooling..

In fact they developed the aftercooler back in the early 90's so why would they say such a thing..

Here's a link for you..http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/coolers/
I will forward your comment to John Snee of Vortech Engineering..







EPP is biased as hell cause this is their main product they push..