front mount turbo v.s. rear mount turbo
01-21-2006, 12:22 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by BUYAMERICAN
That Cartek car with the STS T at 13 psi ran 9.33 at 149.
Nick's PTK car is at 18 PSI. I cannot remember his boost for his high nine run, 14 PSI if I recollect.
Cartek has several other front and lower mounts that go fast as well.
They all make power. I know this because Synergy has worked on both setups. The fact is the STS T's and TT's are putting down a little more power per psi with a lot less heat soak. They are leave the line harder.
I don't buy into the motivated Bullchit.
I personally think/know all the TT kits can easily push nines on a built 346 out the box, on properly setup car. It is just to early in the product cycle for some kits.
Whether its the PTK kit, TTI kit, Cartek Twin kit, Cartek STS T kit or the STS TT kit. Some others kits will hit this marker as well.
I pesonally like the STS TT due too
1) Much less heat in the engine compartment (no turbo's and no restriction of airflow in the engine compartment).
2) Fuel Temperature is less.
3) Stock look and no movement of engine components.
4) Weight of the turbo's behind the IRS (Take a look at Sleath's 1.3.. Sixty). Vs. extra turbo weight on the nose.
5) Install time is a lot less.
6) I just sold my exhaust to recoup cost.
7) You can use the stock manifolds.
8) Better balance.
9) You can put turbo's on in various sizes from T3/4, T4 on up.
10) CARB approval accross the board on all their products in Spring.
Brent
Nick's PTK car is at 18 PSI. I cannot remember his boost for his high nine run, 14 PSI if I recollect.
Cartek has several other front and lower mounts that go fast as well.
They all make power. I know this because Synergy has worked on both setups. The fact is the STS T's and TT's are putting down a little more power per psi with a lot less heat soak. They are leave the line harder.
I don't buy into the motivated Bullchit.
I personally think/know all the TT kits can easily push nines on a built 346 out the box, on properly setup car. It is just to early in the product cycle for some kits.
Whether its the PTK kit, TTI kit, Cartek Twin kit, Cartek STS T kit or the STS TT kit. Some others kits will hit this marker as well.
I pesonally like the STS TT due too
1) Much less heat in the engine compartment (no turbo's and no restriction of airflow in the engine compartment).
2) Fuel Temperature is less.
3) Stock look and no movement of engine components.
4) Weight of the turbo's behind the IRS (Take a look at Sleath's 1.3.. Sixty). Vs. extra turbo weight on the nose.
5) Install time is a lot less.
6) I just sold my exhaust to recoup cost.
7) You can use the stock manifolds.
8) Better balance.
9) You can put turbo's on in various sizes from T3/4, T4 on up.
10) CARB approval accross the board on all their products in Spring.
Brent
01-21-2006, 12:45 PM
#62
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Repeated? Naw... I've NEVER heard of those very important advantages for STS systems ever in my life. I had no idea! It's a good thing they were listed. 
Maybe it's just me... but what is "motivated bullchit?" Is that when bullshit is inspired by something to rise, take action, and become something better, like dogshit?
Maybe it's just me... but what is "motivated bullchit?" Is that when bullshit is inspired by something to rise, take action, and become something better, like dogshit?
01-21-2006, 03:02 PM
#63
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Why wouldn't Julio/Dave Cartek just turn up sleath's car from 13 psi (9.33/149) to 18 PSI? Nick is hoping to match Sleath's number at 18 PSI vs. 13 PSI. But O.k.
Irregardless, I like a number of the various kits.
There is just small difference between doing it or being specific vs. a one liner.
Irregardless, I like a number of the various kits.
There is just small difference between doing it or being specific vs. a one liner.
Last edited by BUYAMERICAN; 01-21-2006 at 05:23 PM.
01-21-2006, 03:03 PM
#64
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O.K. as I promised elsewhere, I am going to layout my entire Synergy 427 STS TT Build.
I am also going to layout and photograph my race brake system, suspension system and cooling system.
Enjoy...
First the Turbo Food Chain
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/turbo_overview.htm
There are twin T3's, twin T 3/4's, twin T4's and then there are twin T60's.
Specially made Garret GT Stage III, Turbonetics T60's
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0171.jpg
The kit minus the intercooler.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...ent=TheKit.jpg
TIAL BOV. 11 Base+0-15 PSI. at a flick of a switch.
Any questions?
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...rrent=Tial.jpg
Wastegate #1
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...Wastegate1.jpg
0-15 adjustable EBC in Box
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...nt=15lbEBC.jpg
High quality fittings.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=Fittings.jpg
STS Wiring Harness
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...ingHarness.jpg
Sixty Page (Copyrighted) manual, stickers, nice badges.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...eSTSManual.jpg
Front of the car without the carbon fiber air dam on.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0012001Z06.jpg
ACP World Challenge Carbon Fiber Hood
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...=ACPCFHood.jpg
Side Profile
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0187.jpg
Rear Profile
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0190.jpg
Twenty other cars, inside one wing, of the shop.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0191.jpg
The Car has Legs
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9539.jpg
Legs from the other side
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9533.jpg
The little shop devils made me do it.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9684.jpg
Regards,
Brent
I am also going to layout and photograph my race brake system, suspension system and cooling system.
Enjoy...
First the Turbo Food Chain
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/turbo_overview.htm
There are twin T3's, twin T 3/4's, twin T4's and then there are twin T60's.
Specially made Garret GT Stage III, Turbonetics T60's
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0171.jpg
The kit minus the intercooler.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...ent=TheKit.jpg
TIAL BOV. 11 Base+0-15 PSI. at a flick of a switch.
Any questions?http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...rrent=Tial.jpg
Wastegate #1
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...Wastegate1.jpg
0-15 adjustable EBC in Box
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...nt=15lbEBC.jpg
High quality fittings.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=Fittings.jpg
STS Wiring Harness
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...ingHarness.jpg
Sixty Page (Copyrighted) manual, stickers, nice badges.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...eSTSManual.jpg
Front of the car without the carbon fiber air dam on.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0012001Z06.jpg
ACP World Challenge Carbon Fiber Hood
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...=ACPCFHood.jpg
Side Profile
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0187.jpg
Rear Profile
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0190.jpg
Twenty other cars, inside one wing, of the shop.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...t=PANA0191.jpg
The Car has Legs
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9539.jpg
Legs from the other side
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9533.jpg
The little shop devils made me do it.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b208/B...0__M4A9684.jpg
Regards,
Brent
01-22-2006, 12:11 AM
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Umm your "awesome" stage 3 (ancient as pluto) wheeled Turbonetic units have Precision compressor covers....????? BTW, nothing specially made about a stage 3 turbine wheel with 60 trim compressor wheels....lol. Kind of like the special T67 STS claims (cough 67/p-trim...cough). 
Also Nicks car is a very low compression stock cube engine on pump gas......low timing high boost is the key. Not a stroker fully tuned and on meth/race fuel. I take it you don't build many turbo cars do you.
Also Nicks car is a very low compression stock cube engine on pump gas......low timing high boost is the key. Not a stroker fully tuned and on meth/race fuel. I take it you don't build many turbo cars do you.
01-22-2006, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Cut out on the downpipe and vent the gate to ATM.
Make sure you point it to the back of the car. My rearmounted kit has the Wastegate forward facing right behind the exhaust pipe(was going to tie it in later) and its pretty quiet.
01-22-2006, 02:41 PM
#68
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As I have said I like a number of the TT setups. Nor do I see the point of saying one is bad, when it in fact works quite well in reality, unless you have another motive. Poor comments, based on nothing, are just that...nothing.
Stealth's car is a 388. Yes, it is running meth at 13 PSI. Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI. (Now 3 Bar) and frankly I want to see him run a low nine.
Synergy has over a dozen different types of F/I cars being modded in the shop at all times now. But O.K...Perhaps you will tell me about all the different F/I cars there right now?
Stealth's car is a 388. Yes, it is running meth at 13 PSI. Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI. (Now 3 Bar) and frankly I want to see him run a low nine.
Synergy has over a dozen different types of F/I cars being modded in the shop at all times now. But O.K...Perhaps you will tell me about all the different F/I cars there right now?
01-22-2006, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BUYAMERICAN
As I have said I like a number of the TT setups. Nor do I see the point of saying one is bad, when it in fact works quite well in reality, unless you have another motive. Poor comments, based on nothing, are just that...nothing.
Stealth's car is a 388. Yes, it is running meth at 13 PSI. Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI. (Now 3 Bar) and frankly I want to see him run a low nine.
Synergy has over a dozen different types of F/I cars being modded in the shop at all times now. But O.K...Perhaps you will tell me about all the different F/I cars there right now?
Stealth's car is a 388. Yes, it is running meth at 13 PSI. Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI. (Now 3 Bar) and frankly I want to see him run a low nine.
Synergy has over a dozen different types of F/I cars being modded in the shop at all times now. But O.K...Perhaps you will tell me about all the different F/I cars there right now?
http://www.nick.neptune.com
BTW, Care to comment on the special GT stage 3 series Turbonetis turbos with PTE covers.
As for synergy, well don't really care what they have in their shop....lol. Not my business. Our business is turbos and testing/design with some of the manufactures that produce those magical turbos you guys mention. I just laugh at all the crap the rear mount guys spit out with their special turbos, that aren't special at all. At any one time we have at least 2-3 rear mounted T60's, T67's and others here for rebuild from scavenge pump problems (very common) and they are just old technology 67mm inducer units with old p-trim wheels.
01-22-2006, 07:20 PM
#70
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Please read?
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
No, frankly do not want to bother arguing with you since you (do not know anything) about my setup. Nor have I commented in regard to any of the other turbo specs...But o.k..Please tell us all...
Not that have I owned some modified high dollar OEM front mounts and blower apps. as well. They all worked just fine.
I think we will just put down the numbers like the others have. The other half dozen or so 383-427 STS TT's well put down numbers as well, in the next month or so. This will say enough shortly. Good luck to you.
Brent
I like this one.
Kenny Duttweiler - Duttweiler Performance, Inc.
(Longtime "Turbo God" Kenny Duttweiler has a well-established reputation as the finest turbo tuner in all of drag racing.)
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
No, frankly do not want to bother arguing with you since you (do not know anything) about my setup. Nor have I commented in regard to any of the other turbo specs...But o.k..Please tell us all...
Not that have I owned some modified high dollar OEM front mounts and blower apps. as well. They all worked just fine.
I think we will just put down the numbers like the others have. The other half dozen or so 383-427 STS TT's well put down numbers as well, in the next month or so. This will say enough shortly. Good luck to you.
Brent
I like this one.
Kenny Duttweiler - Duttweiler Performance, Inc.
(Longtime "Turbo God" Kenny Duttweiler has a well-established reputation as the finest turbo tuner in all of drag racing.)
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
Last edited by BUYAMERICAN; 01-22-2006 at 07:25 PM.
01-22-2006, 07:37 PM
#71
Originally Posted by BUYAMERICAN
Kenny Duttweiler - Duttweiler Performance, Inc.
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
01-22-2006, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by engineermike
Give me a break! Whomever doesn't see that for the pure, unadultered paid-for propaganda that it is really needs to open their eyes.
It's a sad day in a tech forum when propaganda is appealed to for furthering a position in a (surprisingly) serious discussion (so far) in lieu of individual, rational, and original arguments.
Hey, why have threads at all. Let's just have straight links to automobile/performance parts manufacturers' product information web pages, read, and learn from there the things we need to know about the products we're interested in.
Between the original (and very clean, I might add) 10 item list of STS advantages and this garbage, this goes beyond the occasional and enthusiastic nut swinging that could be expected. I mean, this is either a personal obsession to be their sworn defender (sad), or a result of being on their payroll (understandable at least if not still laughable). If we wanted that kind of information, we'd find some ads ourselves and save ourselves alot of typing and reading.
Anyway, back to some good front-mount/remote-mount discussions.
The posts on A/R ratio differences beween turbo locations etc. were very enlightening to read and revealing.
Last edited by bboyferal; 01-22-2006 at 08:22 PM.
01-22-2006, 09:09 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by BUYAMERICAN
Please read?
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
No, frankly do not want to bother arguing with you since you (do not know anything) about my setup. Nor have I commented in regard to any of the other turbo specs...But o.k..Please tell us all...
Not that have I owned some modified high dollar OEM front mounts and blower apps. as well. They all worked just fine.
I think we will just put down the numbers like the others have. The other half dozen or so 383-427 STS TT's well put down numbers as well, in the next month or so. This will say enough shortly. Good luck to you.
Brent
I like this one.
Kenny Duttweiler - Duttweiler Performance, Inc.
(Longtime "Turbo God" Kenny Duttweiler has a well-established reputation as the finest turbo tuner in all of drag racing.)
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
No, frankly do not want to bother arguing with you since you (do not know anything) about my setup. Nor have I commented in regard to any of the other turbo specs...But o.k..Please tell us all...
Not that have I owned some modified high dollar OEM front mounts and blower apps. as well. They all worked just fine.
I think we will just put down the numbers like the others have. The other half dozen or so 383-427 STS TT's well put down numbers as well, in the next month or so. This will say enough shortly. Good luck to you.
Brent
I like this one.
Kenny Duttweiler - Duttweiler Performance, Inc.
(Longtime "Turbo God" Kenny Duttweiler has a well-established reputation as the finest turbo tuner in all of drag racing.)
"Squires Turbo Systems' remote-mounted turbos have solved all of the problems associated with traditional engine-mounted turbo systems. The intense underhood heat a turbo generates has been eliminated and you no longer need to punch a hole in your oil pan or cut up the front of the vehicle for an intercooler. Emissions should be really good too with mounting the turbocharger after the catalytic converter."
Wow quoting advertisement....nice
I like this one
This is backed by motortrend, its CARB legal and also backed by many "automotive God's".....its a must isn't it????
Engineering marvel
As for your setup, I may not know about it, but you posted pics of it
. Plain and simple it says PTE on the compressor covers and you mention Turbonetics....hehe. In a nutshell, the rear mount kits will make power, no one says that, but just not as much as a front mount, no a responsive. How come everyone always forgets how a compressor map is derived??? Please test a turbo at 400-600 degrees and tell us what the compressor map does, then post and tell us heat, velocity...etc..etc does not effect a turbo. I always get a kick out of reading STS's FAQ....
01-22-2006, 09:17 PM
#74
Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Please test a turbo at 400-600 degrees and tell us what the compressor map does, then post and tell us heat, ....
hp = mass flow rate * (enthalpy1 - enthalpy2) * efficiency
In gasses, enthalpy is directly proportional to temperature only. So, the hotter the inlet gas (enthalpy 1), the less of a pressure drop it takes to extract the required power to drive the compressor.
01-22-2006, 09:23 PM
#75
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Yeah Mike I guess people ignore facts..... And yes enthalpy is directly a sourced part of the equations used in compressor map derivation.
BTW for those that don't know how turbos are tested....check the link below..
http://www.forcedinductions.com/helpadvanced.htm
BTW for those that don't know how turbos are tested....check the link below..
http://www.forcedinductions.com/helpadvanced.htm
01-22-2006, 10:20 PM
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[QUOTE=BUYAMERICAN]Why wouldn't Julio/Dave Cartek just turn up sleath's car from 13 psi (9.33/149) to 18 PSI? Nick is hoping to match Sleath's number at 18 PSI vs. 13 PSI. But O.k.
brent psi means nothing unless you know head design, piston shape, ect, ect, ect....
my compresion is 8.37 whats stealths??? i doubt he knows, doesnt know the stall in his car. he just likes drivin it!!
brent psi means nothing unless you know head design, piston shape, ect, ect, ect....
my compresion is 8.37 whats stealths??? i doubt he knows, doesnt know the stall in his car. he just likes drivin it!!
01-22-2006, 10:24 PM
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[QUOTE=BUYAMERICAN]Please read?
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
brent sorry to tell you but i already have
thats what i ran at the track..the vid one.
and i ran NO meth as my ecs was broken. you can pm julio don and he ll verifiy that he sent me new diaphram.
"Nick will not be running pump gas at 18 PSI."
I have talked to Nick via mail five times this week alone. But o.k...
brent sorry to tell you but i already have
thats what i ran at the track..the vid one.
and i ran NO meth as my ecs was broken. you can pm julio don and he ll verifiy that he sent me new diaphram.
01-23-2006, 12:28 AM
#78
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Nick, I have zero doubt on any thing you say and despite of what some others say, I think you will be in the low nines next time out.
I just don't see the point over arguing over what kit is vastly better if they all seem to work very well. You and I are certainly not here to bash any turbo kit. Nor do I think either of us ever have. What do we get out it?
LPE, APS, PTK, TTI, STS T or STS TT. Frankly, I am just happy to see the results.
Actually Jose, they all appear fairly close as far as total power obtained per psi...That's the funny thing about math, you left a number of factors out your equation. So I will tell you what, lets just put down the results as they come in. Is this good with you? If we obtain enough results, I can bring a conclusion within one standard deviation. Again, I really don't care.
I am sorry you did like the third party comment from Kenny Duttweiler. I did not make him say it. I could care less what someone wants to buy. It really does not phase me one way or another.
Like I said Synergy has installed just about eveything,
Brent
P.S. Nick, I like Sleath's method. Just give me the keys.
P.P.S. Nick, call the boys at GM and remind them to send me our cut on the new Mini GM C5R style style heads I am "promoting." Kapish...
I just don't see the point over arguing over what kit is vastly better if they all seem to work very well. You and I are certainly not here to bash any turbo kit. Nor do I think either of us ever have. What do we get out it?
LPE, APS, PTK, TTI, STS T or STS TT. Frankly, I am just happy to see the results.
Actually Jose, they all appear fairly close as far as total power obtained per psi...That's the funny thing about math, you left a number of factors out your equation. So I will tell you what, lets just put down the results as they come in. Is this good with you? If we obtain enough results, I can bring a conclusion within one standard deviation. Again, I really don't care.
I am sorry you did like the third party comment from Kenny Duttweiler. I did not make him say it. I could care less what someone wants to buy. It really does not phase me one way or another.
Like I said Synergy has installed just about eveything,
Brent
P.S. Nick, I like Sleath's method. Just give me the keys.
P.P.S. Nick, call the boys at GM and remind them to send me our cut on the new Mini GM C5R style style heads I am "promoting." Kapish...
Last edited by BUYAMERICAN; 01-23-2006 at 12:33 AM.
01-25-2006, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JZ 97 SS 1500
Umm your "awesome" stage 3 (ancient as pluto) wheeled Turbonetic units have Precision compressor covers....????? BTW, nothing specially made about a stage 3 turbine wheel with 60 trim compressor wheels....lol. Kind of like the special T67 STS claims (cough 67/p-trim...cough).
As for advertising, Ha how about the PTK claim of
"On our prototype test vehicle, the owner has already made 745 Hp and 735 Torque to the ground on pump gas at a higher boost level!"
Its clearly known that was done on 110 race fuel.
Dave
01-25-2006, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 99Fbody99
You mean unlike the PTK offered TE-44s?
As for advertising, Ha how about the PTK claim of
"On our prototype test vehicle, the owner has already made 745 Hp and 735 Torque to the ground on pump gas at a higher boost level!"
Its clearly known that was done on 110 race fuel.
Dave
As for advertising, Ha how about the PTK claim of
"On our prototype test vehicle, the owner has already made 745 Hp and 735 Torque to the ground on pump gas at a higher boost level!"
Its clearly known that was done on 110 race fuel.
Dave
Actually Dave you are clearly full of **** and just adding to misrepresentation on this board. Since I am the owner of this setup and posted the results almost 1 year ago on this forum, which received a lot of positive comments from more experienced people on this board.
I can help clarify that I used Pump Gas...and the only reason I said Pump Gas is because of others stating they used Pump Gas. For which they were referring to Sunoco 94 GT as Pump Gas, where I live Pump Gas is 91 octane, but I happened to find a station that sold Sunoco 100 GT right next to the 91 octane...at a Pump...so guess what I can buy "unleaded PUMP GAS", and refer to it as PUMP GAS, just like some others.
Oh and in case you are confused, I drove the car to the pump and pumped the gas into a 1/4 of 91 octane..so being that a Z06 has like a 16 gallon fuel tank that would be 4 gallons of 91 to 12 gallons of 100...so it wasn't even 100 octane.
So my advice is before you chime in, chime in knowing what you are talking about...otherwise stfu.