Water, Alky, Meth wtf is the difference?
Water, Alky, Meth wtf is the difference? I would like to persue some kind of adder so i can run some more boost/timing, but whats the difference between them all? why would you run one over the other? etc? im clueless here.
thanks in advance!
thanks in advance!
and yes i read the FAQ
Whats up with methonal/alcohol/water injection?
Methonal injection is methonal (high octane fuel) and injected into the intake pipes, this helps prevent detonation when you are running on lower octane fuel and or non-intercooled applications. Methonal injection systems can be had for a few hundred dollars.
It can be mixed with water or run straight.
Alcohol is also a "high octane fuel" which helps surpress detonation like methonal, it to can be run straight or mixed with water.
Water injection cools the intake charge which alows you to run more boost with surpressed detionation.
but it doesnt really say why one is more desired than the other or why you wouldn't want one vs the other, etc.
Whats up with methonal/alcohol/water injection?
Methonal injection is methonal (high octane fuel) and injected into the intake pipes, this helps prevent detonation when you are running on lower octane fuel and or non-intercooled applications. Methonal injection systems can be had for a few hundred dollars.
It can be mixed with water or run straight.
Alcohol is also a "high octane fuel" which helps surpress detonation like methonal, it to can be run straight or mixed with water.
Water injection cools the intake charge which alows you to run more boost with surpressed detionation.
but it doesnt really say why one is more desired than the other or why you wouldn't want one vs the other, etc.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
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just to make it clear, water injection does very little cooling of the intake charge! what it really does is provent deptonation by slowing the flame front down. so with the increased dept ressistance you can run more boost, or advance the timging (helping with spool up) or run higher comp ratio(agian helping with spool up).
alcohol (meth is one type ethanol is the other) does provide some cooling of the intake and is also higher octane than gas. these to things help reduce dept and let you push the engine harder. also one thing to thing of when using meth is you need special pumps and line. meth eats away at ally so you need to be carefull.
so a good half way house is a water injection system with 50% alky. this lets you use a water injection system with no worry of it corroding anything.
probably have missed something out but you know! lol
Chris.
alcohol (meth is one type ethanol is the other) does provide some cooling of the intake and is also higher octane than gas. these to things help reduce dept and let you push the engine harder. also one thing to thing of when using meth is you need special pumps and line. meth eats away at ally so you need to be carefull.
so a good half way house is a water injection system with 50% alky. this lets you use a water injection system with no worry of it corroding anything.
probably have missed something out but you know! lol
Chris.
Below is an indication of the ability to absorb heat in the chamber
Water = Oxygen content 0% (ignoring dissolved oxygen) Latent heat of Vaporization 2259 KJ/kg (K = 539.6 BTU/lb . F
Methanol = Oxygen content 49.9% by wt, latent heat of vaporization 1099 KJ/Kg . K = 262.6 BTU/lb . F
Isopropyl (C3H8O) = Oxygen content 26.66% by wt, latent heat of vaporization 666 KJ/kg . K = 159.24 BTU/lb . F
Water = Oxygen content 0% (ignoring dissolved oxygen) Latent heat of Vaporization 2259 KJ/kg (K = 539.6 BTU/lb . F
Methanol = Oxygen content 49.9% by wt, latent heat of vaporization 1099 KJ/Kg . K = 262.6 BTU/lb . F
Isopropyl (C3H8O) = Oxygen content 26.66% by wt, latent heat of vaporization 666 KJ/kg . K = 159.24 BTU/lb . F
fetchls1, wow thats some great info...if only i knew wtf to do with it hahaha.
ok so water slows down the flame front, understood. meth will actually help to cool the charge then. but aids in increasing the octane of the gas.
so if you could get a "special" system to run straight meth/alcohol, thatd be ideal?
ok so water slows down the flame front, understood. meth will actually help to cool the charge then. but aids in increasing the octane of the gas.
so if you could get a "special" system to run straight meth/alcohol, thatd be ideal?
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Originally Posted by frcefed98
Any meth injection system can run straight meth, so you are alright with whose ever kit you chose
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Maybe this will help you guys a bit.
I ran alky injection (50% water/50% methanol) for about a year on my supercharged grand prix. I used a devils own kit. I tried all sorts of combos from straight water, to 70% methanol. The best for keeping KR away was water. Water was best but it also boged like ****. Methanol is best because it is a higher octain and will burn good. I have alot more info on this but this should be a good start...
I ran alky injection (50% water/50% methanol) for about a year on my supercharged grand prix. I used a devils own kit. I tried all sorts of combos from straight water, to 70% methanol. The best for keeping KR away was water. Water was best but it also boged like ****. Methanol is best because it is a higher octain and will burn good. I have alot more info on this but this should be a good start...
Originally Posted by partyhardoo69
I have alot more info on this but this should be a good start...
Good start or not, post up and help out our lil FI community. Any and all knowledge is welcome....especially for us needing the expertise.
J
Originally Posted by frcefed98
Good start or not, post up and help out our lil FI community. Any and all knowledge is welcome....especially for us needing the expertise.
J
J
i 2nd that
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Castro Valley, CA
...safety is another reason to use methanol; even at 100%, you can put out a methanol fire with water.
The problem is, you can hardly see the flame on burning methanol...
One solution, if you're the worrying sort, is to use a serious-*** race fuel cell for your methanol. Another is to go with 50:50 methanol:water which I'm fairly certain (but do not hold me liable) is not flammable. I think. Just remember to use filtered distilled water if you're spraying any at all.
The problem is, you can hardly see the flame on burning methanol...
One solution, if you're the worrying sort, is to use a serious-*** race fuel cell for your methanol. Another is to go with 50:50 methanol:water which I'm fairly certain (but do not hold me liable) is not flammable. I think. Just remember to use filtered distilled water if you're spraying any at all.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
RW99, have you tried burning vodka or wiskey?? they do burn and thats only at about 40%! you run 50% and it will be evne worse! lol
a forget what temp allky evaporates at but i think its well below 0 degress C!!! and gas is even worse at -40 degrees C!
Chris.
a forget what temp allky evaporates at but i think its well below 0 degress C!!! and gas is even worse at -40 degrees C!
Chris.
The AlkyControl kit is designed to run straight Meth. When I was researching meth injection I ventured over to the Buick Grand National board. They have an entire section devoted to it.
My plans are to run straight meth w/ 10# of boost on the stock bottom end.
My plans are to run straight meth w/ 10# of boost on the stock bottom end.
Originally Posted by Steel Chicken
water DOES cool the intake charge just not as much as methanol does.
50/50 water ethanol I was seeing 15 degree IAT drop
100% ethanol I was seeing 20 degree IAT drop
50/50 water methanol I was seeing 20-25 degree IAT drop
100% methanol I was seeing a 40 degree IAT drop
On a 100 degree ambient day running 100% meth I would go from cruising IATs of 110 to around 70 degrees, initial hit of meth would drop me to about 65 degrees. At night when the temps are in the 90's I could see as low as 50 degrees. With the methanol the hotter it was outside the larger drop I would see. I have seen a 50 degree drop in intake temp over a pull in 115 degree ambient temps which puts my cruise IAT at around 125-130.
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
From: Castro Valley, CA
You know, I looked up that whole 50:50 flammability thing, and it turns out that that mixture of water:methanol IS flammable. You can take a little dish of it, toss a match in, and the match will fizzle out... but hold your hand over the dish and you'll feel the invisible fire.
I was thinking that there was a greater difference in flashpoint between diluted methanol and ethanol (yes, the flaming drinks)... but, ummm, no.
But hey, there's already a bunch of flammable fluid already being plumbed all over the car, so why obsess over the alky?
I was thinking that there was a greater difference in flashpoint between diluted methanol and ethanol (yes, the flaming drinks)... but, ummm, no.
But hey, there's already a bunch of flammable fluid already being plumbed all over the car, so why obsess over the alky?