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Top ring to use for forced induction?

Old 12-11-2006, 03:02 AM
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Speed inc built my shortblock with the diamond -14.9cc pistons and diamond "pro select rings" Im assuming they used the forced induction rings in my motor considering the piston dish. If speed recomends them, and runs them in their shop car, i trust them.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:44 AM
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ok you need to double check before running out and buying something you dont need or already have. I believe the plasma molly are also known as chromemolly sp? which should work fine for forced induction. but like I said simply research what you already have. it sounds like you are golden though. hope this helps ~Guy
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:51 AM
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joining
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:57 PM
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For 90% of the FI people out there (including myself) there is nothing wrong with plain old plasma moly top rings. Most of the time the moly flaking off is from the rings butting (not enough gap) and not from detonation. If you detonate it hard enough to flake the moly of the rings you will have a lot bigger concerns.

Like anything else you can use the 'best' stuff but that can keep going for a long time and drain your wallet pretty quick. Tool/stainless/chrome rings work great if the bores are prepped the right way but moly is a little more forgiving with slightly out of round/tapered bores IMO. And if you wash out a cylinder with the harder rings you usually just bought yourself a new block/sleeve. Thats just my experience with them and its just my opinion. You will get people saying you 'have' to run the better rings and you will have people tell you you dont need them - as suggested call the people who make the rings and ask them what they recommend.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:06 PM
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thank you
i am going to give Diamond a call, But i think the ones i have are good.
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:56 PM
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Default Piston rings

Hellfire Rings are made by Speed Pro - division of Federal Mogul. These are a 'hardened' ductile iron ring, much more forgiving than a tool steel or stainless ring which are way overkill for 'street' engines or ocassional track engines. You would typically find these used in a 'all-out' race application where the engine is pulled down for other reasons every 30-40 runs. The Hellfire ring was engineered based upon diesel piston ring technology - extreme duty, and longevity which were the concerns. These rings are excellent replacements to the tool steel and stainless alternatives. Many professional racers and builders have switched to these at the Pro-Mod level, boith N20 and Supercharged.
The only ring you are concerned with is the top ring anyway, most of the time the second is just a 'cast' iron ring, not ductile or anything special, doesn't need to be, doesn't take the pounding the top does. Don't waste your money on a Total Seal 2nd either. Many studies/dyno comparisons have been done showing this is in-effective. You are best to run a conventional second ring with a wider, or at least equal to the TOP ring gap, depending on application.
The Hellfire uses a process to 'harden and temper' the ductile iron material to withstand HIGH combustion temperatures causing it to exhibit anti-tension loss characteristics when exposed to these HIGH HEAT environments, such as a 500,000 mile to 1,000,000 mile diesel engine. These rings are 99% un-coated, meaning no molybedenum (moly) applied via the plasma arc process, they are just raw, un-coated.
Moly flaking is typically a product of DETONATION, ring butting, another story will cause the piston to fail 9 times out 10, lifts the top ring land off the piston. Moly-flaking is good indicator you better get a hold on your tune-up, because it ain't right. Your rod bearings will indicate this as well. Moly coated (ductile) rings are suited for N20 engines with up to 250HP shots and moderate level boosted engines, beyond this and you are better suited for the 'hardened' rings which will handle the cylinder temps better and maintain good ring seal for longer periods.
The trade-off as mentioned is cylinder bore wear. Either the tool steel, stainless, or hardened ductile iron will outlive a soft grey iron production based sleeve and promote more rapid wear. Now get an aftermarket Darton liner or the NEW LSx block and this will be a different story.

There is always a trade-off when racing........

Your rings will be fine for your application.

Last edited by helicoil; 12-18-2006 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:58 AM
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where do you get those hellfire i want them but cant find them
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:05 PM
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bringing this one back. I'm trying to find out about the hellfire rings also. I looked on Speed-pro's website at federal mogul and couldn't find any part numbers for the hellfire rings. I'm trying to get a set for a 3.905 bore if any one can help out.
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:56 PM
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I stayed with the standard Diamond Proselect moly rings...
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:38 PM
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Me too
The Diamonds Pro select rings are for everyday use, I called Diamond and found that out for myself, There tech guy said that the Diamond rings that i have are good for forced induction and for daily driving , The Diamonds Proselect rings have been used with no problems in LSX street-strip engines running up to 20 PSI and that the Hellfire rings are much more agressive and should only be used in Full Race motors that will only see track runs and will need often inspection , and rebuild.

Diamonds Tech guy also said he has heard of the Diamond Proselect rings in LSX motors and other engines making more than 20 PSI
But he can say that at 15-20 PSI will not be a Problem with them at all as long as the rings have been properly file fitted so the ring ends dont butt together and cause the plas moley coating to come off.

The Hell Fire rings do not have any coating on them
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:03 PM
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Well I guess I have a race motor then. Go hellfire LOL! My car doesnt burn any oil and runs like a champ. I read on some of the most reliable motors on this board and alot of them are running hellfire rings. Its all a personal choice.

Last edited by JMBLOWNWS6; 01-01-2007 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 01-06-2007, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawnboy
Me too
The Diamonds Pro select rings are for everyday use, I called Diamond and found that out for myself, There tech guy said that the Diamond rings that i have are good for forced induction and for daily driving , The Diamonds Proselect rings have been used with no problems in LSX street-strip engines running up to 20 PSI and that the Hellfire rings are much more agressive and should only be used in Full Race motors that will only see track runs and will need often inspection , and rebuild.

Diamonds Tech guy also said he has heard of the Diamond Proselect rings in LSX motors and other engines making more than 20 PSI
But he can say that at 15-20 PSI will not be a Problem with them at all as long as the rings have been properly file fitted so the ring ends dont butt together and cause the plas moley coating to come off.

The Hell Fire rings do not have any coating on them
.



That is correct the Hellfire's do not have any coating on them in most cases. Although, there are some sizes available with a Ni-Chrome facing, but not for LSx engines. You have to understand that no coating is not a BAD thing. The base Top ring material is 'hardened and tempered' with a HF479 designation, it is not just an un-coated ductile material. It takes a tremendous amount of temperature for a long, long period of time for this ring to fatigue - lose its ability to maintain shape and point load on the cylinder wall, because of the amount of hardness and temper in the parent material. Moly facings, whether a surface facing (like usually a stock style non-ductile-cast ring) or the plasma-arced applied moly facings (like usually on a ductile iron ring) can deteriorate under 'sustained' detonation. Loss of moly equals loss of cylinder bore contact = loss of combustion seal.

Hellfires are well proven for longevity, again this ring technology developed by Perfect Circle/Dana - now falling apart as a company - is liscensed and owned by Federal Mogul and sold under the Speed Pro nameplate. Arguably the BEST rings in the industry. Everybody else has been playing catch up for many years and buying rings from Federal Mogul to use in their ring packages that they offer. It was alot like the hydraulic lifter business, many companies sold them, but only a few made them. Things are a bit diffferent now. Excuse me for rambling. But the Hellfire ring technology comes from the BIG diesel world and longevity just slightly outweighs something a automobile gas engine would experience like for BIG Detroit where a 1,000,000 miles/hrs of service are the expectations compared to say 200,000 miles for a stock pass car gas application.

Hellfire rings work well anywhere really. If you are planning to exceed 50,000-75,000 miles on your modded engine, maybe they aren't for you. But be realistic, that is probably not going to happen for most of us with these cars.
I guess there is always the exception.

Most ALL of your professional level Heavy hitting race teams from NHRA to Nascar to NSCA/NMRA Outlaw Street, BIG HP N20 or Blown Alcohol or Blown Nitro to Big Turbo and even just BIG HP Normally Aspirated NHRA level Pro Stock use Speed Pro piston rings, not Diamond Select, not Total Seal, not Mahle maybe some Akerly or JE stuff, but mostly Speed Pro. It has been this way for years. The have dominated this business because they work! Now like everything, there are always exceptions and preference. Nothing is ever blanket and not saying other rings sets don't work because they do.... just stating some facts. Call around and check with some serious builders, may have to go outside of this forum to do that. Alot of these guys are not doing much volume with the LSx stuff yet......different market.

Regular plasma moly ductile iron Tops and 'cast' Seconds with a SS50U oil control ring will work just fine for most 8-15lb boosted engines with a handle on their tune-up, maybe even more. These R series sets have worked for years in High HP apps. in the performance industry. Something like a P/N R-10598 .13MM or .38MM Speed Pro set for a 3.897" (99MM) bore LS1 stocker with whatever o/s you need, .13MM or .38MM
This set is comprable to the Diamond Select sets w/o a ductile second, not really needed IMO.
If you are running a serious piece beyond this you are a candidate for the Hellfire. If you want to run the Hellfire in a lesser HP application that will work to.

The Hellfire Ring Set P/N for a 4.00 bore LS2 style engine is a R-19112 with the following oversizes available that go at the end of the p/n - 5, 35, 45, 65.

The Hellfire Ring Set P/N for a stk LS1 99mm bore is R-19114 with the following available oversizes that go at the end of the p/n - .13MM and .38MM.

These both come with STANDARD 3MM Oil Tension rings. The top and second rings are 1.5MM just like stock.

Individual TOP Hellfire ring ONLY P/N's for the LS1 99MM would be:
BR-19-129 plus the oversize you want as listed above

Individual TOP Hellfire ring ONLY P/N's for the LS2 4.00" bore would be:
BR-19-131 plus the oversize you want as listed above.

These individual rings are available from your Speed Pro/Federal Mogul engine parts distributors such as Jeg's, SDPC, Summit, EPW. Liberty, Competition Products and so on as special order items. You can also buy a complete single cylinder ring set for any race application by placing a 'W' in front of the ring set part number, ex W R19114 13MM gets you 3 complete piston rings for one cylinder. Example: you killed one piston on the button and are only replacing it and the rings, everything else in the engine is fine.

Last edited by helicoil; 01-06-2007 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 01-06-2007, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JMBLOWNWS6
Well I guess I have a race motor then. Go hellfire LOL! My car doesnt burn any oil and runs like a champ. I read on some of the most reliable motors on this board and alot of them are running hellfire rings. Its all a personal choice.

+1
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Old 01-06-2007, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by anarchy99
bringing this one back. I'm trying to find out about the hellfire rings also. I looked on Speed-pro's website at federal mogul and couldn't find any part numbers for the hellfire rings. I'm trying to get a set for a 3.905 bore if any one can help out.

You need P/N R-19114 .38MM (+.009") giving you 3.906" before filing
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Old 01-06-2007, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by helicoil
You need P/N R-19114 .38MM (+.009") giving you 3.906" before filing
Best part about it is I bought a extra set to have when the time comes! LOL Do you work for Speed Pro?
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Old 01-07-2007, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by JMBLOWNWS6
Best part about it is I bought a extra set to have when the time comes! LOL Do you work for Speed Pro?
Speed Pro who? Let's just say I am in the automotive industry right now like most car enthusiasts in some way, shape, or form. Just trying to keep my head above water like most.........
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Old 01-10-2007, 09:47 AM
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Excellent posts helicoil! And as stated above, we do keep several sets of the Hellfire rings in stock for the most common LS applications! PM or call me if I can get pricing/availability to anyone on these rings
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawnboy
OK
But what is the top Chrome ring i am hearing about,
sounds like i can just use the diamond Pro-slect rings i have , but use a diferent Top ring.
They're probably talking about CHROME-MOLY..As in Chrome moly steel...Here I was thinking that you were talking about plated rings...hahahah...Yes they are very good and I used them when I did a build on my sbc...They held up really well...That's what I'm going to use on my LS1 when I get 'er built...

Just read that we're talking about the same thing...Either way good reading and very informative...Keep up the good work guys

Last edited by 98turbls1; 01-10-2007 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 05:46 PM
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ps....Diamond also sells Total Seal TNT series rings that are non-gapless for N2O and boosted apps. Thats what Diamond sold me with my pistons.

Craig
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Old 01-10-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 1fastWS6
ps....Diamond also sells Total Seal TNT series rings that are non-gapless for N2O and boosted apps. Thats what Diamond sold me with my pistons.

Craig
How are those working out for you??? Any leaks or problems to report??
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