BLOWNBLUEZ06

iTrader: (17)

Something confusing about what they said in that article above is about the " lack of internal compression", so I looked more into this. The roots style blowers have the charged air pushing back at the rotors. This one of the reasons for their ineffeciency. The turbo and centrifugal chargers are not affected by the charged air being on the boost side of the compressor. Something else that I haven't seen mentioned is that the lamda for E85 is not the same as gasoline, so this needs to be taken into consideration when doing your fuel tuning. I don't understand why you can't take enough fuel out to compensate for the amount of methanol you are injecting either. FYI I have a Magnuson on my car as well. I spoke with ECS about performance gains with meth injection and they advised me that they don't recommend backing out fuel and compensating with meth because if your nozzle stops up then you are going to have a big problem being lean under boost! They just advocate it being used as "insurance" against detonation and whatever you can gain from the chemical intercooling effects. I take it you have a stock cam in this car? My engine has the " blower" cam which reduces the dynamic compression of the engine and helps fight against detonation due to the static compression.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

iTrader: (17)

Ok me again. Compared to 14.7:1 AFR being stoich with gasoline at idle and cruise, E85 is considered stoich at 9.76:1 WOT is 7.5:1 for E85. Just keep in mind if your are tuning, forget about the AFR and use the lambda. It takes 14.7:1 AFR with gasoline to achieve a 1 lambda value. It will take more E85 to achieve the same lambda value of 1. If you tune for 12:1 AFR at WOT with gasoline that is a .82 lambda value. Tune for that same lambda value with E85 and it should take 7.5:1 AFR to achieve the same lambda.

NXSLT1

The copy and paste stuff contradicts what you say about not spraying after the blower. That's where the compressing is taking place with a roots blower so according to that article that's where you need the injection. I'm not gonna do that so it doesn't matter to me anyway. Yes, a big reason the roots is less efficient is because the rotors are beating the air to death. Plus they get really hot from mechanical heat and that heats the air further, as big as they are it's like a big heat sink. Injecting in top of the blower like I do helps cool the blower itselfs which means alot for bearing and seal life, not to mention cooling the air. I'm not having trouble with cooling the air, it's the bogging I can't get rid of. As mentioned above it's more than likely the water content bogging it.

I know all about the E85 lambda and AFR stuff....... As far as not being able to take out enough fuel to compensate for the meth........I may be wrong on some of this because I've done so much to this car trying to tune it I've forgotten half of what I did and why I did it but I have my theories. Running the E85 I had to lie to the ecm about the injector constant because roots blown vehicles need a huge pumpshot and when I stepped on the gas a lil bit it would go way lean for a couple of seconds and would cut out and hesitate. This is the only way I know to compensate for that with the stock ecm since there is no pumpshot table. Somehow telling it it has 24lb injectors instead of 42lb makes it give a bigger pumpshot. It's probably due to the fact that it takes roughly 40% more fuel with the E85. Anyway, ever since I did that I have to make a huge change in the WOT tables to get a small change in the WOT AFR and I reach my tuning limits before I can take out enough fuel with the meth.

I have another question, or comment, and this might be a big part of my problem........I've always been told to run one rich to be safe, right? I read last night that running one too rich will cause detonation just like running one lean will. If this is true then it could be a big part of my problem with the E85 (without meth). I've been running it with an 11:1 AFR, sometimes it'll dip down into the mid 10's. I read the other day that you don't have to richen the E85 as much for WOT as you do for gasoline. I'm gonna lean it out a lil to about an 11.5 and run it just on the E85 and see what happens.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

iTrader: (17)

I am not as smart as I am resourceful. I don't have any personal experience with E85. I am getting confused with your AFR's though. Your lambda's would tell me more. I don't know how you're calibrated to get your numbers. Gasoline or Alcohol. I would expect that you don't have to run as rich relative to gasoline and lambda due to the fact that the E85 is supposed to have an Octane of 105 or something. I have always had a rule when tuning my car at the track. Richen it up first. If it goes faster, then keep increasing until it doesn't get any more mph, though it seems the more you richen it up the worse you get. Something else I considered is do you have narrowband O2's in the car? I know at WOT if you enter PE mode the car shouldn't listen to them, but if you do, I am wondering if the computer is getting a good reading from the 02's. I am wondering if you have forced the computer to not attempt to achieve a cruising mixture of 14.7:1 with the E85. What kind of wideband are you tuning with? LM-1?

NXSLT1

Not saying anything about yer intellect so don't think I am. I appreciate the help. Yes I'm using the LM-1. Unless I calbrate the wideband for the E85 I just use the normal AFR for gasoline. Trust me it took awhile to figure that out. It has stock narrowbands and it keeps a 14.7 during cruise, which would be about 9.7 if the wideband was calibrated for the E85. I'm just too lazy at the moment to take the wideband out of the exhaust and let it hang in open air for 24 hours so I can recalibrate it.

If I can get it to run on just E85 then I'm gonna try to do E85 injection in top of the blower, cooler air and blower is always good no matter what, right? I tried that before but I used a stock 24lb injector and that was nowhere near big enough. The meth injector is an 18GPH per hour which would be about a 108lb injector, alot of difference there. I'll just plumb my meth injector into the fuel line.

Also, I might go back to gasoline and try the meth injection, that way I will be able to lean out WOT more. It would be nice to run it just on E85 tho, that way I only fill up one tank.

I'm headed to put a new tune in and lean it out in WOT and see what it does. I'll post up later.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

iTrader: (17)

Hey, I took no offense whatsoever. I was just lettin' ya know that I am not speaking from personal experience as a PHD scientist about these things. I am just a horsepower lovin' guy forced to be a mechanic for the last 20 years because I started racin' broke and then when I started makin' money kept gettin' screwed, so I kept doin' it myself. As I mentioned earlier, I own a Maggie and have been sittin on the fence about meth injection while I educate myself as much as possible, so I am interested in sharing what I have learned as well as learning more and getting feedback about the successes and issues with meth injection specifically on the Maggies. Please keep up the chat with us throughout your adventure with this because I want to know where you end up and what it took to get there. I was wondering what a gallon of E85 cost.

NXSLT1

I have taken out everything in my WOT tables and still can only get it up to an 11.3 AFR. I've got a couple more things I'm gonna try then I'm going back to gasoline and try the meth with it. I like to tinker.

Above about 3500 rpm I get no or very little knock and it runs like a scalded dog. That maggie has a bypass valve right? That would probably help me out tremendously if I had one of those, that way it would bleed off the boost down low til I nailed it, at least I think that's how they work. I could also put a cam in it to help bleed off the pressure down low. Is yer maggie intercooled? That helps alot but I have no room for it, you should see how stuffed my engine bay is right now.

E85 here is $3.05. Just filled up today so I've got a full tank to run out before I go back to gasoline which won't take very long. I only got 150 miles out of the last tank full, that's what you get when you have to burn 40% more. It's not feasible to run E85 unless you need that high octane like I do. I'll keep posting as I go.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

iTrader: (17)

I can't believe anyone would want to run E85 at that price! I was thinking if you are having difficulty pulling out fuel when so much more is required, how are you gonna pull out even more when you go back to gasoline? I used to have the v6 Turbo Trans Am and I had a cam that built cylinder pressure too fast and the car was knocking and pulling timing out like mad. I put in a cam better suited for my setup and it quit knocking and made a ton more power, so maybe that's complicating things for you as well.
Yeah, my maggie is intercooled. The meth is supposed to be even better at cooling down the charge though.
Keep me posted.

NXSLT1

My thinking (and hoping) is that since I had to lie to it about the injector constant then that's what is making it difficult to pull out fueling. Could be wrong but this is my thinking....... to richen up the "pump shot" effect I told it it had 24 lber's. It sees this big burst of air when I give it a lil throttle and it says "wow that's alot of air and I only have 24 lber's, let's give it a big pump shot", then when the airflow settles back down it goes back to trying to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR. If it knew it had 42's it wouldn't give as much of a shot because it thinks they are big enough that a normal shot would handle it and that would make me lean like it was doing because a roots blower requires a bigger than normal "pump shot". AND the extra fuel needed when running E85 only compounds that problem. It would jump up to 19:1 AFR sometimes for a couple seconds just from normal acceleration and of course stumble and stall. Anyway, when I take fuel out for WOT it thinks it's removing fuel for a 24 lb instead of the 42's, so it aint taking out as much as if it had 42's. For instance, in one WOT table you can put negative numbers in up to -50. Say I have it at -20, it's taking out fuel at that rate for a 24 instead of a 42 so it's gonna be less. Just my theory and I could be totally wrong.

Plus, I think, but I can't remember for sure, it seems like since the E85 takes 40% more it was maxing out the long and short term corrections trying to get it to 14.7 AFR so I dropped the injector constant down and it took care of that for some reason, could be wrong on that one tho. I'm only 34 and my memory is already shot! Anyway, when I switch back to gas I probably won't have to lie to it as bad therefore I'll be able to take more fuel out for the meth. I'll let ya know by the weekend sometime.

BOONE

iTrader: (4)

I asked cooling mist about their pump before I bought it, and they told me they designed it to run on straight meth, but market it with water for safety reasons. The pump is bullet proof I have run it with Klotz uplon fuel lube, with no issues for a long time at high flow rates. The fuel lube keeps the pump lubed so its not so completely dry. When I talked to the guy about the 100 percent meth thing he said; look I'm not going to tell people to go run something that can ignite and burn without them even seeing it. And be a fire hazard with a possible trunk mount kit.............. This kit is right up there with Alkycontrol and FJO. I run it straight 100% and have with all my different kits that I have owned, and have always used the uplon lube and have never blown a pump up or had one stop or go lean or any issue of any kind. Boone.

NXSLT1

Yeah I kinda figured they were marketing it like that for safety reasons and CYA.

NXSLT1

Just filled up with 93 octane and put the 12 gph nozzle in. I get knock for a split second when it goes into boost. Only problem with that is it keeps my timing for quite some time and won't give it back. Is it normal to have to mess with the knock retard recovery rate tables to get it to give my timing back quicker??

One thing I have noticed is the air temps are about 25-30* higher during cruise without the E85 so I guess it was cooling the intake somewhat during highway cruising. I'm not getting much air temp cooling effect from the meth/water so I'm gonna put the 18gph nozzle in and see if that helps. The WOT AFR is all over the place so I'll have to do some tuning on that but I believe I'm on the right road now. I guess the problem with the E85 was I just couldn't take out enough fuel in WOT. It could be made to work I'm sure but I'm tired of fooling with it, maybe some day I'll mess with it again.

Hopefully this week I'll get the tune down and will post up some video and such.

NXSLT1

Ok screw this windshield washer fluid crap. I'm going tomorrow and buy some methanol. Everytime I add more meth/water and then get the AFR where it needs to be it bogs, too much water as stated above I guess.

BOONE

iTrader: (4)

You will need the 18 to get what you want. Down the road if you want to run a safe powerful setup and upgrade you can go with a duel nozzle setup. I ran twin 13gph nozzles with the m3 from vp racing and with the oxygen in it, I could run with or without it and it did not change my afr almost at all. It was an insignificant amount, low enough that if it failed for any reason it would not matter. VP figured the oxygen content perfectly I would say. You could not say this for unoxygenated meth. Boone.

NXSLT1

Bought some methanol today, will try it out in a lil while.

How big of a tank do you have in yer car to supply dual nozzles? My washer tank will hold about a gallon and the one 18gph nozzle sucks it down real fast. Maybe since I have it coming on at the first sign of boost is a big reason why.

NXSLT1

I give up. Nothing I do gets rid of this knock. I'm pulling the motor out and dropping compression.

NXSLT1

Ok so I didn't give up. Just for ***** and giggles I threw in a bone stock tune with the exception of timing taken out and drove it to work this morn. Without the meth injection I got just a tiny bit of knock. I was cruising on the interstate in 6th gear at about 2100 rpm and put it on the floor and held it there and it showed knock just one time. Usually the knock count would be clicking off numbers like a stop watch at that low an rpm. Makes no sense to me. The air temps were unusually low tho, around 110, I'm sure that made some difference. I think I know where I've been majorly screwing up with the tune tho, I was going on ill advice given to me I believe. I'll keep plugging away with new thinking on the tune and add the meth in and hopefully straighten it out now.

ss53mech

a thought, what if he put a water nozzle pre blower and a meth nozzle post blower both with small jets proportional to application. The original theory to "intercooling" was that the charge was cooled between sections of superchargers not the standard aftercooling that is performed in most cars today. This would cool the blower intake charge to make it more efficient and cool the charge after the blower adding fuel at the same time for more power. Also this would give him the ability to "tinker" with each individually. I have never been a proponent of meth injection but I will watch this topic to see what solves it.

RW99

... that is outside the box, indeed.

More variables to dick around with; with the extra control would come yet another level of complexity. And it sounds like things are already too complicated with the E85 swap.

But certainly something a guy could rig up, as long as the water was deionized/distilled.

ss53mech

Well if he can prove the theory of functionality on gas then he would just have to make adjustments if he goes back to E85.

On a side note, on all the wideband stuff that I have used, I calibrated it prior to use and haven't had any problems with it, and that was on engines that were swapped from alky to gas.