Rob Raymer

It's late, I'm tired. I'll make this as short as I can:

We installed our base TE-63 turbo kit on Jonathan Boss's '99 TA Automatic car this week. (I'm sure many of you have spoken to him on the phone, as he is our sales manager)

We installed it EXACTLY as we had originally designed the kit to be installed. With the oil drain located in the factory drain plug of the oil pan (just to see if we would experience any alleged smoking issues). This complete kit was removed from Shawn's car (our original turbo kit test car) after nearly 30,000 miles, and installed on Jonathan's car. The turbo has never been removed prior, or rebuilt. Let me say this again....it has nearly 30,0000 HARD miles on it.

Jonathan's Trans Am has a stock 85,000 mile engine (also very hard miles, NOS previously, track nearly every week since new, and so on). It is stock right down to the valve springs, and heads which have never been off the car. It has a Coan built 4L60E trans, with a Coan lock-up 3200 converter and 3.23 gears in teh stock rear end. He has been driving with the kit on his car since Wednesday, in 95 degree (or hotter) weather, with the stock cooling system (and a 160 thermostat), and the car has NEVER gotten over 210 degrees. Up until today, it had only seen a max of 5lbs of boost (running right off the wastegate spring only).

We received LS1 Edit this morning (which I have never used before) and I began tuning. I am very familiar with FAST systems and DFI, so LS1 Edit wasn't that difficult to pick up on. Within about 3 hours on the dyno, I was able to map a near perfect 11.5-11.8:1 A/F graph. This is using the 85mm MAF (supplied with our complete kits), located in front of the turbo as we originally designed. All dyno pulls were started in Drive, from about 3600 rpm's, in order to keep the car from downshifting. So I really believe that if we were able to start at a lower RPM, the TQ numbers would have been truly amazing (not that they aren't anyway).

A few quick points:
1. NO Ice was used, or any other type of additional cooling (no cold water on the IC, etc)
2. This was on 93 octane, pump gas.
3. All Numbers posted are SAE, and smoothed to eliminate exaggerated HP/TQ numbers.
4. The 7lbs of boost pull, and the 9lbs of boost pull were made only 8 minutes apart. Proving that heat soak was not an issue, and that the Intercooler is VERY capable of doing its' job.
5. Boost was adjusted with a manual Grainger valve (about $25), and has ZERO boost creep, or boost loss. It holds DEAD STEADY at whatever we set it at.
6. Again, this is the first time I have EVER even actually seen LS1 Edit in person. And my first attempt at fully tuning a turbo LS1 from scratch. I'm sure more could be gotten by someone like Ed Wright at the PC.

What you're all waiting for - The results:
-------------------------------------------------------
4.5-5lbs of boost numbers:
430rwhp @ 5500
439rwtq @ 4000
A/F 11.5:1 @ 5700 (end of pull)
-------------------------------------------------------
7lbs of boost:
470rwhp @ 5300
555rwtq @ 3900
A/F 11.5:1 @ 5800 (end of pull)
-------------------------------------------------------
9lbs of boost:
502rwhp @ 5300
585rwtq @ 4100
A/F 11.8:1 @ 5800 (end of pull)
-------------------------------------------------------

I do not have a scanner at home, so I cannot post the dyno sheets until I get to the shop, sometime on Monday. But I assure you, I will post them ASAP.

This car runs and drives PERFECT. Just like stock, but with MUCH more power. No stumbles, no idle issues, no smoking on decel or otherwise, and we never blew off as much as a hose clamp! For reference, prior to the turbo kit, it made 308rwhp/338rwtq @ 13:1 A/F.

What I will NOT do:
1. I will not get into another heated debate publicly.
2. I will not give free information as to how I tuned the car(i.e. what I did to the MAF tables, PEvsRPM, timing, etc). I will tell you that we are running a max of 18degrees timing, with ZERO Knock Retard. If you have a kit that you paid for as a COMPLETE kit (with tuning), and need help, I will be more than glad to answer any and all of your questions in private.

I hope this answers some of your questions, and helps to clear some of the doubt surrounding our kit. Anyone is welcome to stop by the shop and go for a ride in this car to experience it firsthand. Just give us a call before you come.

nilestracing

Man your alls turbo kit is pimp lol. I can only hope my turbo project comes out as good as your alls lol. matt

02BlueFirehawk

looks good, can't wait to get mine.

Rob, you should consider adding the boost controller to the kit or making it an option to add. It's pretty much a gotta-have item in my opinion.

Thanks,
Rob

Rob Raymer

The reason why we don't add the boost contoller to the Complete Kits, is because we know what would happen. We send tuning for the base boost of 6-7psi, and then someone thinks they can turn it up to 10psi with no problems. Next thing you know, they blow up their engine and it's our fault "because the tuning was bad".

So instead, we mark the Wastegates so that we can tell if they've been tampered with (as in, turned the boost up). Simple way to keep things honest.

nilestracing

Hey rob trade me a turbo kit with no turbo or intercooler for my mac toolbox, itd look good in your garage and the turbo kit would look nice on my 6.O. lol

10secondZ

iTrader: (24)

Very impressive Rob! I have alway's loved the design of your kit and have backed it all the way...I think this kit is a very quality peice and nobody should flame this thread..if you have issues..the shop does has a telephone!Also understand that nothing is perfect going from one car to another..thing's vary..Anyway's VERY nice work!

Carter

BIGBOS

Those are some impressive #'s....I want to see how that thing does at the track....

RICE ETR

iTrader: (3)

Ok First off.... i do appreciate the results being posted....seriously

But... as i always do..i have questions...

Why would Shawn sell his kit when he had such a perfect running car with unseen dyno numbers?

Why is it possible that this car ran 9psi with pump gas when Shawn had to run 50/50 race gas?

Where is the 100rwtq the car is missing.. as other cars (blue)?

What YOU did with the 85mm maf?.... hmm well since you were unable to give MM ANY help whatsoever, i am going to bet that Ed had just a little to do with this tuning....

how convenient... so was this whole thing posted up to stick MM's boost problem in his face?

I am definitely curious to see these dyno graphs.... as well as see if the speed vs. rpm is a LINEAR line like it was last time you dynoed an auto... and your reasoning was "it is what it is.."

Sorry for being a stickler... but these results yet again do not make sense..... to me

RICE ETR

iTrader: (3)

Come on Rob... it does sound like a great idea... on paper (as most ideas do), but talk to any turbo company(even precision...call them!).... returning oil from a turbo below the level of oil is a huge no no.

Oh.... you should see MM's manifold... we were working on pulling things apart earlier today... that $$$$ stainless rusted up like plain CR steel... sometime tomorrow you should see pics of it and the ill-flowing primaries....

Rob Raymer

Wow...I sure didn't expect this!

I will make one attempt at answering all of your STUPID, already asked and answered before, flaming, senseless questions:

Of course you do....it gives you the opportunity to start more senseless, argumentative crap with me. (Are any of the moderators reading this?)

No...you have more argumentative points that you are attempting to make, disquised as questions. You have no valid, helpful questions or input.

Do a search, I posted his dyno numbers JUST FOR YOU, long ago. Or did you so conveniently forget?
Why would Shawn sell his kit? Well, again if you would read what people post, you would know. Shawn answered this himself in your last flaming thread discussion. Are you calling me a liar? I REALLY hope not. Because you are already dancing on my last nerve.

Once again, you read only what you want to. Do another search, and you will see that Shawn CHOSE to add racing gas as a safety precaution while Ed Wright was tuning it at his dyno. Nobody EVER said he "HAD TO ADD RACE GAS". In case you forget, at that time we were about the only people who were making anywhere near 500rwhp under boost with a bone stock engine. Is it really so dumb to use caution? To spend an extra $20 to maybe save an engine while breaking new ground with FI tuning??? We didn't think so. Where were you back then when we needed your expertise anyway???

You are a real genius, aren't you? What part of, "All dyno pulls were started in Drive, from about 3600 rpm's, in order to keep the car from downshifting. So I really believe that if we were able to start at a lower RPM, the TQ numbers would have been truly amazing", did you not understand??? Shawn's car was a 6 speed. His pulls could be made from 2000-2500 in 4th, obviously allowing a higher TQ number to be shown. Read boy, read! Geez.


REALLY?? Did you say "bet"?? What exactly are we betting? I tell you what...I'll let you keep your hard earned money this time. Why don't you give Ed a call and ask him what he had to do with tuning this car. Ask him if he has EVER told me ANYTHING about LS1 Edit tuning, or otherwise. I can absolutely guarantee you that his answer will be along the lines of, "I didn't even know Rob used LS1 Edit". To be clear: ED WRIGHT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TUNING OF THIS CAR WHATSOEVER. That means, no suggestions, no hints, not even as much as a phone conversation about it. And neither did anyone esle. There were only two people at the dyno today....me and Jonathan. Now, make another brilliant guess for the audience.

I don't know....was it Ms Cleo?

Actually, there is no speed on these dyno sheets. It has HP/TQ/AF/RPM. If I remember correctly, the reason the last A4 dyno sheets we posted had Speed, was because the Wideband O2 was broken at the time. Or didn't I explain that to you ALREADY? Would you like me to print these dynos off with Speed also? Just for you? Better yet, why don't you drive over here, and I'll let you watch us dyno the car? I'll even pay for your gas! (and I'm not joking) Beat that deal.

You're sorry alright.

What else is new? NOTHING makes any sense to you unless it's something YOU were personally involved in. Big surprise there.

Read Corky Bells book? Apparently not. ANYWAY....it's not just on paper that it looks good. How is it that Shawn had it on his car for 30,000 miles, WITH NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER??? And now, we have the same turbo on another car with 85,000 miles on it, and NO ISSUES. Hmmm...yep...that's EXACTLY the same as "looks good on paper". I really don't know why I waste my time with you...other than I get a kick out of showing how much you think you know versus how little you really know. (trust me...many others do to)

Yep...I manufactured the stainless pipe personally. Everyone knows 304L stainless is crap. And I also designed those "ill-flowing primaries" that could only make over 700rwhp on my car. BTW, I don't think that's the only thing "ill-flowing" on his car. Did you see those Head-flow numbers MM posted? I really don't think our manifold is having any problem supporting his headflow capabilities (though I'm sure you'll argue that too).

So how 'bout that? We post more impressive turbo numbers, and we still have a worthless kit. All I can say is, both of the kits that are having problems right now, both have engines from the same place, and tuning was not purchased along with either kit. That's the only thing I see that they have in common.

So why is it that we are the ONLY PEOPLE IN QUESTION?????????? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME! That's all I'm asking for. Or better yet, just give me one quote where you, MM, or Warbird said that the problem MAY NOT BE OUR KIT, or that the problem MAY BE BECAUSE OF SOMEONE/SOMETHING ELSE. Just show me ONE QUOTE by any of you to that affect!

Show me , show me, show me! I dare you!

(and to think...I was tired and wanted to go to bed early...)

LSs1Power

iTrader: (5)

Hey Rob, are u guys planning to run this car at the track?

Rob Raymer

We would have ran it today, but it got rained out. The first day this week that the track is open, we will run it. And we'll be sure to take the video camaera. (even though I'm sure that still won't be good enough for "some" people)

Orange Krush

Robert very impressive numbers indeed!

If U could,please e-mail me the price of the complete 9lb. kit and a list of all that is included in the kit @ oz28@msn.com, thanx in advance Bob Goddard.

Black LS1 T/A

Rob, I'm willing to give YOU some free LS1-Edit advice. Set the shift point table for the gear you will do the pull in to 10 MPH and the shift threshhold to 10MPH. I'm sure you will see a lot more torque if you grab it down low... my 422 makes it's most torque right where the stall converter flashes. Also, remove torque management. (Carputing says at least some of the PCMs have a numerical max torque limit of 639.)

Rice_Etr, this was a matter of fact post, where Rob took the time to install his kit on a car in the fasion you guys wanted ... you are just baiting. You have been instigating in threads where you really have no valid concern. I'm sorry to check you on this, friend. We try not to be parental on this board. We can't allow you to diminish the forum in this way. Please don't post responses to the QMP issues any more, unless you get a QMP kit. If you have a question about my decision, email me or the Administrator... don't respond here. We are tired of the flaming. (Rob, please don't bother to reply to anything Rice_Etr has said.)

To all, I'd like to see CONSTRUCTIVE posts to this thread continue. The time Rob has taken to install the QMP kit on a stock vehicle with the commercially designed installation method (complete with boost and power analyses) is good information for the forum, and we appreciate it. WE would like MORE vendors to be like that.

I wish a more balanced number of successful purchasers could post their experiences as well.

Rice_Etr, let's stay on good terms and you let go of this issue, please. When I get back to NC from FL tonight, this thread will be the first I check. Any moderator who checks this while I'm on the road today, if this thread spins out of control, please ban the user and delete the negative post. Keep the thread going.

I HOPE Rob can be flexible about helping MM and Warbird line their kits up. But, I have to admit, if you won't take his advice on the kit, who can blame him for not endessly repeating himself. ARE should be interfacing with Rob on the kit they installed, BTW. Most objective onlookers agree with this.

Hugs and Gummy Bears.

Rob Raymer

Cool. I knew there was a way to basically lock the trans in the gear, but just didn't take the time to find out yesterday. Thanks for the help. And thanks for trying to keep things on track here.

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

Good job Rob! I'm glad you got to tune with LS1Edit. It really isn't that hard...especially when done on a dyno. What type of exhaust setup does the car have?

Mekkadon

iTrader: (3)

It would be nice to see a dyno graph man! I mean on 7lbs of boost, it making 470RWHP in an AUTO with a stall @ 5300RPM! Wow! I just want to see the power curve.

I would think that the power would continue up past where you cut off @ 5800RPM. But, it could be the stall converter's efficiency factor eating up that extra HP @ high RPMS. Good numbers!

Rob Raymer

It has a Flowmaster cat-back, which is pretty restrictive for a turbo car (chambered muffler). So we opened the cut-out at the axle. All of the pulls were made this way. Which is also the way he baselined the car at 308rwhp.

And thanks for the compliments! I was just about ready to stop selling turbo kits. But after some encouraging posts now, I might not quit after all.

Rob Raymer

I will definitely post all of the dyno sheets by tomorrow. (MAYBE later tonight if I make it out to the shop after "Family Day")

To help answer your curiosity though, Jonathan's car still has stock valve springs. As usual, on boosted applications, the stock springs generally won't hold boost well above about 425rwhp (from our experience anyway). His starts to drop above 5500 also. Though it did still hold pretty well for an 85,000 mile engine, IMHO.

On the 7lb pull, it was still making about 440rwhp and just over 400rwtq at 5800.

On the 9lb pull, it was making right at 470rwhp at 5800, and 425rwtq at 5800.

I'll try to get the sheets scanned and posted later tonight...

CHRISPY

Nice numbers!!

Did you see any trace of valve float with the stock springs on the higher boost pulls? Or was it ok where the rpms were kept relatively low?

Was the dyno tuning done on a Mustang or a dynojet? Over the years I have seen a boost increase of approx 3#'s on the street versus a dynojet in turbo apps due to the difference in load. (dynojet loads approx 2800 pounds versus a Mustang (Eddy Current) that can fully load the car) I am sure you probably know this though and have accounted for it in the tuning.

That is VERY interesting that the oil drain worked for the drainback to the pan. Saves tapping the pan and all those associated headaches! Will be interesting to see how that drain location works over the long term.

Thanks for posting up your results!
Chris