NoOne

FFV vehicles have an extra oxygen sensor to fix the gas/ethanol mix.

1.70 is cheap considering todays prices and more so considering this stuff is 105-106 octane, its crazy stuff for FI cars.

Phoenix 5.7

iTrader: (7)

you can't directly compare the prices, cause ethanol vs gas is not 1:1 as far as consumption. its more like 1.5 or 2:1 ratio.

NoOne

Your trading 10 percent worse fuel mileage for a huge savings in cost.

HectorLS1

iTrader: (6)

What ever it is, its time for a change. The middle east can't have us by the ***** as they do now.

GTOwnd

They sell ethanol at some of the pumps out here in vegas... I'd be very interested to know exactly what is needed to run it safely... i wouldnt mind paying for some dyno time to retune the car on 105 octane!! So is it just the physical parts that the fuel touches? and then the tune? More information on this would be greatly appreciated.

NoOne

I'll get a specific list tommorow on what we change on your E85 cars and post it up.

trix5032

iTrader: (5)

someone needs to make a kit for this. because paying $40 for 13 gallons really really sucks

wrencher

iTrader: (2)

This is the key Phoenx is right on the money.
There are plenty of flex fuel vehicles on the road today.
The PCM has a sensor that tells the PCM the amount of alky in the fuel. It adjusts the pulse width accordingly. The regular gas now a days is at about 10%. E85=85%.
Ask alcohol racers there putting in twice the fuel for the power. It would be about the same thing in you daily .
The ratio is close to 2:1 to gasoline, so you'll actually burn more fuel for the same milage. Not the answer to the problem

NoOne

Wrencher,

A properly setup E85 production car gets 10 percent worse fuel economy than its gas counterpart.

It is not anywhere near 2:1 for any FFV on the road today.

wrencher

iTrader: (2)

That is not what fleets of these things are getting out there . Maybe on paper in the engineers perfect world is that 10%? achieved but not in the real world. It still is not the answer. For performance yes alcohol has its advantages, but the upgrades to the fuel system to run it $$$

ActionJack

Sounds like the mods needed are negligable and the only real concerns are where to get the tune and 2nd where to get E85.

For a higher octane and a bit more HP with a clean running fuel, I am all in. And, if I lose a bit in MPG "so what" the costs are still for E85.

Also, a Civic would NEVER be an option over my WS6.

HPP

Exactly. And the tune for it seems to be like an urban legend at this point. No real data ever seems to turn up when digging for it.

NoOne, any luck on the info you said you'd put together?

NoOne

Our E85 guy is out west testing. We, as in people who drive them, get a true 10 percent in freeway driving. I sent him an email and am waiting to hear back from him.

I work for DCX in Chassis systems which is where a good portion of E85 developement goes on.

Short answer today, at least for our vehicles, is the modules(pump, level sensor, etc) need changing for robustness, tuning of course, and if you want true FFV then the sensor equipment. EPA rules changed regarding fuel lines so most fuel lines on new cars(05,06) are coated internally and right now I'm only assuming that they will work without change.

One thing you need to remember, things that need to change for FFV and things that need to change to make your car run on E85 are two totally different things, as a end user you can get away with alot more than an OEM can.

As soon as I have the info I'll post it up, it'll just be in general based on the persons personal knowledge and of course, no reflection what so ever of what you should do to your own vehicle, nor is it a for sure list, just someplace to start your own research.

Doski

I have driven my car with 25% mix with e85 fore a wile now......and it runs perfeckt, no problems at all. My friend has ran his z28 with 50% mix fore even longer time with no trouble.

As long as you dont drive with 100% you dont have to convert anything.....but i wouldent go more than a mix of 25%-50%.
one thing that will help if you want to run more e85 is to install AFPR to raise fuel pressure because e85 needs more fuel to burn. And it has higher octane so you wont get any KR. And the rubber parts are safe.... e85 does not eat rubber, and e85 is not korrosive like methanol......

thesoundandthefury

iTrader: (3)

One other thing to consider about all the reports of people getting worse gas mileage out of E85, is the fact that most modern production engines have a static compression ratio in the 9:1 to 10:1 range. I've talked to several guys who are old enough to remember the days of "high test" fuel, and all of them have said that they saw more mileage when they built their motors with higher compression. I'm wondering what the difference in mileage would be if someone were to take an LS1 or an LT1 and mill the heads or run longer rods to get the motor somewhere in the 12:1 compression area...

Phoenix64

iTrader: (3)

I ran E-85 in my car for 4-5 months.

I got about 220 miles per tank vs 310 on gasoline. Even with the timing bumped. It just doesn't have the fuel content of gasoline.

It ran great, but I stopped using it when it went from 1.40$ to 2.50$, in just a couple of weeks.

oange ss

iTrader: (50)

ethanol has less energy vs reg gas, that's why milage sux and the higher octane rating aint gonna do **** for you

gametech

iTrader: (1)

Anyone who claims only a 10% decrease in mpg with e-85 is either lying or just stupid. Even with a more optimal compression ratio, the real difference is closer to 30%. It only takes a few minutes calculating f/a ratio and btu's of energy per mass of fuel to determine this.

V8_DSM_V8again

I'm not stupid and not lying.

If I am cruising in overdrive or shift and rev for economy on the side streets I only loose about 10% mpg over stock.

You guys are forgetting something and need to repeat HS chemistry...

Look at the air fuel ratios for cruise and those for best power on gasoline. ~14.x cruise... ~12.x power.

Alot different right?

There is a bigger difference between the best MPG lean cruise for E85 and the best power AFR.. If you are a led foot you will probably see a 30-40% reduction in MPG.. If you use cruise and od like me and keep the rpms down on the street you will get 10%..

a increase of 1/2 a point CR will bring it to a 20% less mpg when lead footed

E10 (most pump gas these days) vs E85.. These are WOT graphs.. The BSFC's at cruise rpms with low throttle are ALOT closer.. ESP at 10.32:1 C:R

9.7:1 Compression



10.32:1 Compression... Hmm at 1750 RPM or under and the BSFC looks pretty close between both fuels. Like I said more compression... I was able to increase compression, Increase boost AND increase timing over alot over a 93 octane tune. My E85 boost and ingiton curve is alot like a freinds VP116 tune..



Since I tuned specifically for E85 and run a wide band I think I do as good or better than some OE FFV's.. All of them have a capacitance sensor to "count" hydrocarbons and calculate the fuel mix flowing thru the line in real time..
However... Not all of them have WIDEBAND 02 feedback..

If I floor it and hit 35+psi and row thru the gears.... Well ask the guys in the 10's or under on here how much fuel they go thru on a 1/4 run.... I burn a bit more.. When I dyno I will have a true BSFC.. I am guessing 25-30% more.

Steel Chicken

iTrader: (3)

bump for a good thread. I am also very interested in an E85 conversion.
simple chemistry lesson though, ethanol contains 40% LESS energy per gallon than Gasoline, BUT because it contains its own oxygen, you run a much lower AFR. Properly tuned, and all other things being, equal Ethanol will make about 10% less power than gas, and get around 30-40% less mileage per gallon. Dont beleive anyone who says otherwise, you can't get more energy per gallon, because its just not there. HOWEVER!! Because Ethanol has an octane rating of 100-105, you can run MORE compression and more timing.

From a cost savings point of view, its only worth it if you can get E85 at least 50% cheaper than gas, say less than $2, compared to $3 for gas.

I just called a local station in Denver, they sell it for $2.39 NOT worth it in the long run. Unless of course, you just want to flip off the oil sheiks.