ethanol
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TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2004
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From: Wichita KS
ethanol well, ethanol is starting to be offered in this area, are there any opinions on running gas with ethanol in it? If it is still premium octane rating will octane negatively effect the car or performance? Im weary about using it, but i feel that at some point i may not have an option...
The Ethanol is not going to effect the octane in a negative way. Actually, the good part about Ethanol is it's octane, pure Ethanol has an octane rating of around 115.
Plus, the Ethanol is going to clean out any condensation you may have had in your fuel system because water is solulable in the alcohol.
If you want any more information on the benifits of ethanol, go to www.e85.com, or just PM me, I will be able to answer most questions. Minnesota State University Racing I recieved my BS in Automotive Engineering there with a heavy influence on ethanol as a fuel!!!
And no, I wasn't under the influence through college!!!!LOL
Plus, the Ethanol is going to clean out any condensation you may have had in your fuel system because water is solulable in the alcohol.
If you want any more information on the benifits of ethanol, go to www.e85.com, or just PM me, I will be able to answer most questions. Minnesota State University Racing I recieved my BS in Automotive Engineering there with a heavy influence on ethanol as a fuel!!!
And no, I wasn't under the influence through college!!!!LOL
TECH Resident
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 821
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From: SW Florida
I use 90 octane when I am filling at school here in Wisconsin...at Cenex in my city the price of the 90 octane with 10% ethanol is the same as 87 octane...and then premium (92 octane) is like 15 cents a gallon more so I always just put the 90 in. Car hasn't had any problems with it. I never run a full tank of it though I just fill enough to get across the Minnesota border and back home where gas prices drop 20 cents a gallon.
Ok guys, I have had some more quesitons on PM and I think these questions are better for everyone to see because I think there are a lot of questions about this fuel.
Originally Posted by MSURacing
Exactly
Quote:
when you say E-10, E-25, and E-85 does that mean 10% 25% and 85% respectively?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSURacing
Quote:
so ethanol is compltely safe to run? thats awesome, maybe ill save some money in the future. Also, I am wondering will it have any performance gains/losses as far as energy released upon combustion? Will it be more prone to detonation, or as you said due to higher octane rating will it actually help to prevent knock? just a few q's. thanks for the info
Well, there is a lot to consider when running ethanol. The first thing to realize is that it takes more ethanol to produce the same amount of power as gasoline because of the molecular structure of it. Now, the added bonus to ethanol is that it contains oxygen, so it "chemically" supercharges itself by burning itself.
This will pick you up in the midrange some as your burning efficiency will be higher.
The down side is it will be taking more fuel to do this, so fuel economy is going to suffer. Ethanol takes approx 30% more fuel when run at 100%, E-85 takes about 25% more fuel, and E-10 takes about 5% more.
So, if you would like to run E-85, you would need to make your fuel system appear 25% larger, most likely with bigger injectors, you could possibly do it with pressure, but it would have to be quite high, like over 100psi. But, your car really wouldn't know the difference, because the computer doesn't know how big the injectors are. And, being the fuel carries oxygen with it, it appears to the O2 sensors that everything it peachy.
I hope this answers your questions, let me know if you have any more.
Ethanol use ??s
I saw a post regaurding you experiance with ethanol and had a few questions.
1. What are the good and the bad of using higher concentrations of ethanol in a non-E85 engine. For example, 20-40% ethanol. (mixing E85 and reg gas)
also doing this in a Gen 3 and Gen 1 engines.
2. What are the differences between a GM E85 5.3L and a non E85 5.3L? Sensors, ECM, lines etc...
Any info would help.
Thanks.
To answer the last two questions, see above for pros and cons.
2nd question, the 5.3L Flex fuel has a different injector, actually has the same flow rate as the LS2, now that I think about it, I am pretty sure it is the same one.
It also has a sensor in the fuel line called a flex fuel sensor that determines how much how much % of alcohal is in the fuel. I am not 100% sure how the sensor works, but it is driven by a frequency number.
If anyone has more questions, please ask them on here because I think there are many questions about ethanol and it should all be public knowledge. That is what this website is for, to gain knowledge.
Originally Posted by MSURacing
Exactly
Quote:
when you say E-10, E-25, and E-85 does that mean 10% 25% and 85% respectively?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSURacing
Quote:
so ethanol is compltely safe to run? thats awesome, maybe ill save some money in the future. Also, I am wondering will it have any performance gains/losses as far as energy released upon combustion? Will it be more prone to detonation, or as you said due to higher octane rating will it actually help to prevent knock? just a few q's. thanks for the info
Well, there is a lot to consider when running ethanol. The first thing to realize is that it takes more ethanol to produce the same amount of power as gasoline because of the molecular structure of it. Now, the added bonus to ethanol is that it contains oxygen, so it "chemically" supercharges itself by burning itself.
This will pick you up in the midrange some as your burning efficiency will be higher.
The down side is it will be taking more fuel to do this, so fuel economy is going to suffer. Ethanol takes approx 30% more fuel when run at 100%, E-85 takes about 25% more fuel, and E-10 takes about 5% more.
So, if you would like to run E-85, you would need to make your fuel system appear 25% larger, most likely with bigger injectors, you could possibly do it with pressure, but it would have to be quite high, like over 100psi. But, your car really wouldn't know the difference, because the computer doesn't know how big the injectors are. And, being the fuel carries oxygen with it, it appears to the O2 sensors that everything it peachy.
I hope this answers your questions, let me know if you have any more.
Ethanol use ??s
I saw a post regaurding you experiance with ethanol and had a few questions.
1. What are the good and the bad of using higher concentrations of ethanol in a non-E85 engine. For example, 20-40% ethanol. (mixing E85 and reg gas)
also doing this in a Gen 3 and Gen 1 engines.
2. What are the differences between a GM E85 5.3L and a non E85 5.3L? Sensors, ECM, lines etc...
Any info would help.
Thanks.
To answer the last two questions, see above for pros and cons.
2nd question, the 5.3L Flex fuel has a different injector, actually has the same flow rate as the LS2, now that I think about it, I am pretty sure it is the same one.
It also has a sensor in the fuel line called a flex fuel sensor that determines how much how much % of alcohal is in the fuel. I am not 100% sure how the sensor works, but it is driven by a frequency number.
If anyone has more questions, please ask them on here because I think there are many questions about ethanol and it should all be public knowledge. That is what this website is for, to gain knowledge.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,610
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From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
Originally Posted by RaysZ71
I have heard that ethanol is more corrosive than gas, so using higher amounts hard on seals, injectors, fuel pumps???
What damage can occur to a non-flex engine when E85 is used on a regular basis? What parts would need to be changed/modified in the engine or fuel system to accomidate use of E85 without risking longevity of a gas motor?
Most gas in my area has had 10% ethanol for a very long time now, and that doesn't seem to cause any issues, but going to E85 seems like it might present bigger issues when used long term on a non-flex engine.
IIRC to run E85, it would be a good idea to change fuel lines, and the rubber o rings (basically any rubber part that the fuel contacts should be changed to an ethanol tolerant compound)
Tuning would be helpful as the ethanol has a lower BTU content than gasoline, raising the compression ratio of the engine is suggested, but not required, larger injectors also are suggested if the stock ones are close to max
Nothing really beyond the scope of a good home mechanic, the difficulty lies in when you switch back and forth, as the tune will have to be changed back to gasoline, then back to E85, the flex fuel cars have a sensor in the gas tank that detects the different ethanol content, and instructs the ECM what programed values to use, they also have the ethanol tolerant seals (gas doesn't bother them)
Tuning would be helpful as the ethanol has a lower BTU content than gasoline, raising the compression ratio of the engine is suggested, but not required, larger injectors also are suggested if the stock ones are close to max
Nothing really beyond the scope of a good home mechanic, the difficulty lies in when you switch back and forth, as the tune will have to be changed back to gasoline, then back to E85, the flex fuel cars have a sensor in the gas tank that detects the different ethanol content, and instructs the ECM what programed values to use, they also have the ethanol tolerant seals (gas doesn't bother them)
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 34
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Originally Posted by RaysZ71
I have heard that ethanol is more corrosive than gas, so using higher amounts hard on seals, injectors, fuel pumps???
Banned
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
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From: Pocono Pa
my 99 ta had 10% ethanol in it since new...@ 50k the fuel system was completely gone...even ate holes through the fuel rail...big mess cost 3600 to fix....needed fuel pump,lines,rail,injectors,even ate the ends that were steel on the soft lines that connect the steel body lines to the fuel rail.I'd stay away from it.GM would NOT stand behind it claiming "FUEL CONTAMINATION" BULL SHIRT!
by the way there is a HUGE flaw in returnless fuel systems...they tend to trap water in the fuel rail...you can only guess the outcome of mixing water with ethanol in a carbon steel environment......
by the way thank gm for changing to an ALL carbon steel non plated fuel system 99 up........yes bare steel!Our cars are NOT the only ones sharing in this mess,the newer gm trucks have the same problem.I talked to a local dealer service manager.He admitted its a huge problem in all the new trucks using.....yep you guessed it The returnless fuel system and our cars got it 1st.
by the way there is a HUGE flaw in returnless fuel systems...they tend to trap water in the fuel rail...you can only guess the outcome of mixing water with ethanol in a carbon steel environment......
by the way thank gm for changing to an ALL carbon steel non plated fuel system 99 up........yes bare steel!Our cars are NOT the only ones sharing in this mess,the newer gm trucks have the same problem.I talked to a local dealer service manager.He admitted its a huge problem in all the new trucks using.....yep you guessed it The returnless fuel system and our cars got it 1st.
Last edited by 99PontTA; Feb 1, 2006 at 08:30 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,610
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From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
Originally Posted by 99PontTA
my 99 ta had 10% ethanol in it since new...@ 50k the fuel system was completely gone...
Are you sure it was the 10% ethanol that did it?
Banned
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
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From: Pocono Pa
yep i'm positive...ask mikey at rapid motor sports how many rotted fuel systems he sees working on these fbodies.Infact the local chev truck dealer STOCKS the fuel lines for trucks its such a common problem.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,610
Likes: 2,522
From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
Originally Posted by 99PontTA
yep i'm positive...ask mikey at rapid motor sports how many rotted fuel systems he sees working on these fbodies.
Not trying to argue, just seems odd that I can think of at least a half-dozen local LS1s with over 80K that have used this gas and have not had these sort of issues.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
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From: Pocono Pa
http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/ima...me.html#story7 read this....carefully its right from gm..PLEASE DON"T COMMENT ON THIS UNLESS YOU READ IT CAREFULLY!
Banned
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Pocono Pa
Originally Posted by RPM WS6
So what explains all the high mile LS1 cars I know of in my area that have gotten 10% ethanol since day one and don't have these issues?
Not trying to argue, just seems odd that I can think of at least a half-dozen local LS1s with over 80K that have used this gas and have not had these sort of issues.
Not trying to argue, just seems odd that I can think of at least a half-dozen local LS1s with over 80K that have used this gas and have not had these sort of issues.