Largest High Impedance injectors
02-02-2008, 12:50 PM
#21
LS1Tech Sponsor
big injectors and 1000+ hp More unrelated info from me again. 8-)
For high horsepower applications, especially with E85 or other fuels that require a lot more volume of fuel, another option to get enough fuel flow is to go to 16 injectors.
We use a fabricated intake on our 1000 hp TT Z06 packages and we use 16 stock Z06 injectors on that package and then control the additional 8 injectors with an auxilliary fuel controller (when the MAF pegs the ECM doesn't add more fuel with the first 8 and we start adding it a little before that with the other 8).
You could also go to an aftermarket engine management system that supports 16 injectors. On the 1500-1600 hp 540 CID twin turbo BBC we just engine dyno tested a couple of weeks ago, we also used a custom fabricated intake manifold with 16 injectors but we are using the BigStuff EFI system to run that engine.
With staged 16 injector control, you can have smaller injectors so your idle pulse widths are higher and more linear. You don't even need to run the same size injectors on your primary and secondary systems.
If you want to get really trick you can have the secondary set of injectors run from a second fuel tank that is high octane race gas and the primary injectors are pump gas. If the secondary injectors are much larger and are the primary source of fuel when at full power, then you will have mostly race fuel (fairly easy to estimate the octane level you will be at). For most "street" use of a very high horsepower car, the secondary tank would not need to be very big.
For high horsepower applications, especially with E85 or other fuels that require a lot more volume of fuel, another option to get enough fuel flow is to go to 16 injectors.
We use a fabricated intake on our 1000 hp TT Z06 packages and we use 16 stock Z06 injectors on that package and then control the additional 8 injectors with an auxilliary fuel controller (when the MAF pegs the ECM doesn't add more fuel with the first 8 and we start adding it a little before that with the other 8).
You could also go to an aftermarket engine management system that supports 16 injectors. On the 1500-1600 hp 540 CID twin turbo BBC we just engine dyno tested a couple of weeks ago, we also used a custom fabricated intake manifold with 16 injectors but we are using the BigStuff EFI system to run that engine.
With staged 16 injector control, you can have smaller injectors so your idle pulse widths are higher and more linear. You don't even need to run the same size injectors on your primary and secondary systems.
If you want to get really trick you can have the secondary set of injectors run from a second fuel tank that is high octane race gas and the primary injectors are pump gas. If the secondary injectors are much larger and are the primary source of fuel when at full power, then you will have mostly race fuel (fairly easy to estimate the octane level you will be at). For most "street" use of a very high horsepower car, the secondary tank would not need to be very big.
so how does this low impedence ones work. my goal is 1000 hosre max. but i also want e-85. what can i do to do this. and if i design the kit around 1000 horse( 18psi) what happens when i am on the street and i turn it down to 10 psi or 12 psi. does it flood my motor?
02-04-2008, 07:49 AM
#22
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02-04-2008, 12:30 PM
#23
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Im not sure if Im going to run a driver box and 96s or run the racetronix 79s.If I knew for sure the 79s would tune fine and work at low rpms fine I will go with them but I havent seen many people with them yet.
02-04-2008, 12:48 PM
#24
LS1Tech Sponsor
Another "tuning" option for bigger injectors I am NOT recommending this as a solution, just putting this information out for everyone to be aware.
One more method for increasing the fuel flow that is sometimes used on the supercharger and turbocharger kits is a rising rate regulator. Several companies make them including Vortech and Cartech/Corky Bell.
These devices increase the fuel pressure more than simply the amount of boost increase, causing the injectors to actually become larger and higher boost levels. This can be helpful if you don't have ECM tuning capability or have exceeded what the ECM can understand/control.
You can usually adjust the fuel pressure ratio increase by changing plates and you can sometimes change the rate of rise with bleed screws.
Rising rate regulators, especially on systems that start with high initial fuel pressures, require fuel pumps that can pump at much higher pressures since they increase the fuel pressure more than just boost referencing alone does.
You also have to be more careful about the pressure relief valve setting on your fuel pump (if it has one) and what your fuel system can safely handle in terms of rail/line pressure since 58 psi + 15 psi of boost and a 1.5 pressure ratio (just an example) ends up having 80 psi fuel pressure.
One more method for increasing the fuel flow that is sometimes used on the supercharger and turbocharger kits is a rising rate regulator. Several companies make them including Vortech and Cartech/Corky Bell.
These devices increase the fuel pressure more than simply the amount of boost increase, causing the injectors to actually become larger and higher boost levels. This can be helpful if you don't have ECM tuning capability or have exceeded what the ECM can understand/control.
You can usually adjust the fuel pressure ratio increase by changing plates and you can sometimes change the rate of rise with bleed screws.
Rising rate regulators, especially on systems that start with high initial fuel pressures, require fuel pumps that can pump at much higher pressures since they increase the fuel pressure more than just boost referencing alone does.
You also have to be more careful about the pressure relief valve setting on your fuel pump (if it has one) and what your fuel system can safely handle in terms of rail/line pressure since 58 psi + 15 psi of boost and a 1.5 pressure ratio (just an example) ends up having 80 psi fuel pressure.
02-04-2008, 01:19 PM
#25
9 Second Club
The Walbros do have an internal relief spring as far as I know. I have epoxied these up before, but never actually bench tested afterwards.
I dont think the Bosch pumps have an internal relief spring, the likes of the 044 can handle very high pressures though.
I dont think the Bosch pumps have an internal relief spring, the likes of the 044 can handle very high pressures though.
02-04-2008, 03:19 PM
#26
LS1Tech Sponsor
Internal pressure reliefs Most of the Walbro/TI pumps have an internal pressure relief valve although I am sure some of them don't (depending on the original design application).
The high pressure/high flow GSS series of pumps (GSS340, GSS341, GSS342) have pressure relief valves with a minimum pressure setting of 107 psi (7.4 bar).
Some of the inline Walbro/TI pumps have higher settings and some of the 190 lph pumps have lower settings.
The OE application pumps tend to have lower relief pressures since most of them shouldn't be operating above 3 or 4 bar anyway.
The Bosch 044 (full part number 0 580 254 044) is rated for 5 bar (72 psi) although we have run them to 90 psi. Another Bosch Motorsports pump of the same dimensions is rated to 8 bar (116 psi). That pump part number is B 261 205 413.
The Bosch 044 pumps are great pumps but they don't flow as much more than the GSS 34X series Walbro pumps as people usually think.
I am sure I am very off topic now and maybe this should go to a new thread if it is of any value to anyone.
The high pressure/high flow GSS series of pumps (GSS340, GSS341, GSS342) have pressure relief valves with a minimum pressure setting of 107 psi (7.4 bar).
Some of the inline Walbro/TI pumps have higher settings and some of the 190 lph pumps have lower settings.
The OE application pumps tend to have lower relief pressures since most of them shouldn't be operating above 3 or 4 bar anyway.
The Bosch 044 (full part number 0 580 254 044) is rated for 5 bar (72 psi) although we have run them to 90 psi. Another Bosch Motorsports pump of the same dimensions is rated to 8 bar (116 psi). That pump part number is B 261 205 413.
The Bosch 044 pumps are great pumps but they don't flow as much more than the GSS 34X series Walbro pumps as people usually think.
I am sure I am very off topic now and maybe this should go to a new thread if it is of any value to anyone.
02-04-2008, 03:37 PM
#27
9 Second Club
The standard 044 will maintain flow pretty much to 7-8 bar before it starts to drop off. The Walbro starts to drop off quite a bit at 7 bar.
The high pressure version of the 044, is termed their 10 bar pump.
Flow-wise, there isnt much between them. But ramp the pressure up, and where the Walbro falls flat, the Bosch just keeps on going.
A cheaper version of the 044, is their 909. It has a hosetail inlet, and M12 outlet, and isnt that far behind the 044 in terms of pressure, ability, and flow....but its a lot cheaper.
With the 044's, highest Ive used is 66psi + 21psi boost, so 87psi fuel pressure. At all times my fuel pressure is rock solid with boost. At 66psi test, my pair of 044's were able to flow 2.7 litres of fuel via a -6 line in 20 seconds....approx 486lph at 13.1volts. That aint too bad at all. Im using a -6 return, hence thats the size of line I flowed into my test jug.
But for the money, those little Walbros are hard to beat !
The high pressure version of the 044, is termed their 10 bar pump.
Flow-wise, there isnt much between them. But ramp the pressure up, and where the Walbro falls flat, the Bosch just keeps on going.
A cheaper version of the 044, is their 909. It has a hosetail inlet, and M12 outlet, and isnt that far behind the 044 in terms of pressure, ability, and flow....but its a lot cheaper.
With the 044's, highest Ive used is 66psi + 21psi boost, so 87psi fuel pressure. At all times my fuel pressure is rock solid with boost. At 66psi test, my pair of 044's were able to flow 2.7 litres of fuel via a -6 line in 20 seconds....approx 486lph at 13.1volts. That aint too bad at all. Im using a -6 return, hence thats the size of line I flowed into my test jug.
But for the money, those little Walbros are hard to beat !
02-04-2008, 03:52 PM
#28
LS1Tech Sponsor
Bosch 044 info Here is a link to the Bosch 044 data sheet on the Bosch Motorsports web site:
Bosch 044
I am sure we have flow tested the 909 pump but I don't have a Bosch Motorsports data sheet on it (it might not be sold as a Motorsports pump so that might be why I don't have a data sheet).
BTW - both the Bosch and the Walbro pumps respond well to increased voltage as well.
Bosch 044
I am sure we have flow tested the 909 pump but I don't have a Bosch Motorsports data sheet on it (it might not be sold as a Motorsports pump so that might be why I don't have a data sheet).
BTW - both the Bosch and the Walbro pumps respond well to increased voltage as well.
The standard 044 will maintain flow pretty much to 7-8 bar before it starts to drop off. The Walbro starts to drop off quite a bit at 7 bar.
The high pressure version of the 044, is termed their 10 bar pump.
Flow-wise, there isnt much between them. But ramp the pressure up, and where the Walbro falls flat, the Bosch just keeps on going.
A cheaper version of the 044, is their 909. It has a hosetail inlet, and M12 outlet, and isnt that far behind the 044 in terms of pressure, ability, and flow....but its a lot cheaper.
With the 044's, highest Ive used is 66psi + 21psi boost, so 87psi fuel pressure. At all times my fuel pressure is rock solid with boost. At 66psi test, my pair of 044's were able to flow 2.7 litres of fuel via a -6 line in 20 seconds....approx 486lph at 13.1volts. That aint too bad at all. Im using a -6 return, hence thats the size of line I flowed into my test jug.
But for the money, those little Walbros are hard to beat !
The high pressure version of the 044, is termed their 10 bar pump.
Flow-wise, there isnt much between them. But ramp the pressure up, and where the Walbro falls flat, the Bosch just keeps on going.
A cheaper version of the 044, is their 909. It has a hosetail inlet, and M12 outlet, and isnt that far behind the 044 in terms of pressure, ability, and flow....but its a lot cheaper.
With the 044's, highest Ive used is 66psi + 21psi boost, so 87psi fuel pressure. At all times my fuel pressure is rock solid with boost. At 66psi test, my pair of 044's were able to flow 2.7 litres of fuel via a -6 line in 20 seconds....approx 486lph at 13.1volts. That aint too bad at all. Im using a -6 return, hence thats the size of line I flowed into my test jug.
But for the money, those little Walbros are hard to beat !
