whiine new 373
07-23-2012, 03:54 PM
#21
No I said if the gearset is not set up correctly, pinion depth or ring gear placement. It depends on how far it's off. Most guys put a different gear in the car then go out and run the crap out of it to see what a difference it made. If the contact area is small it will gall the gears and quick. If you look through this section you'll notice this problem comes up about every day. 90% of what I see on gear problems are directly caused by a bad set up. It's not as easy as a lot of people think. The normal person has no idea that you shouldn't reuse the crush sleeve or even the pinion nut. You can't hammer in the side shims and so on. Then there is the fact that the pinion shim is under the rear bearing and to make a change everything has to come apart. Everything, the carrier has to come out, pinion has to come out and so on.
The 9" Ford is about the easiest rear to set up. A real Dana about the hardest. Why does that matter? Because most will just say it's close enough, because it's a lot of work to change it. With a Ford you can change pinion depth without much work, same for side to side ring gear adjustments and carrier preload. So you'er more likely to do it.
Al 95 Z28 w/S60
The 9" Ford is about the easiest rear to set up. A real Dana about the hardest. Why does that matter? Because most will just say it's close enough, because it's a lot of work to change it. With a Ford you can change pinion depth without much work, same for side to side ring gear adjustments and carrier preload. So you'er more likely to do it.
Al 95 Z28 w/S60
For exampe: the service manager actually told me it was not necessary to change the crush sleeve. They did warranty work and I asked why I didn't see the crush sleeve as part of the parts replaced.
Btw, the rearend self destructed 500 miles before warranty ran out at 36000. I put less than 200 miles of their warrantly work for a leaky pinion seal and pinion bearing.
Of course, then it gets down to them not wanting a customer telling them how to do their job. You can't win.
07-23-2012, 07:56 PM
#22
After setting up my own gears, I can tell you it's a long process. I wouldnt doubt at all a mechanic would be cutting corners for "good enough" to save time.
BTW any quality gear set TELLS YOU what to set the backlash and pinion depth too. Don't go by the recommendation of LS1tech members to "tighten it up" or run more backlash. Follow the instructions. Every gear set is slightly different.
I have richmonds in mine and dead silent.
BTW any quality gear set TELLS YOU what to set the backlash and pinion depth too. Don't go by the recommendation of LS1tech members to "tighten it up" or run more backlash. Follow the instructions. Every gear set is slightly different.
I have richmonds in mine and dead silent.
07-24-2012, 06:47 AM
#23
![Ethan[ws6]'s Avatar](https://ls1tech.com/forums/customavatars/avatar139269_2.gif){kind=avatar}
I also heard that Yukon and American Axle Manufacturing are the gears to buy for quiet operation. A little more initially but worth the investment. Also some of those gears are noisy by design. Alot of those gears are made of very hard metal alloys and will make noise regardless. These magazine order gears are just that.
This is possible. Pinion depth is one of the most important things to get right when setting up the rear end.
07-27-2012, 06:35 PM
#24
So what you are saying is that I might have to stand and watch them to make sure they don't cut corners. This is what makes us so leary of trusting any shop to do what is necessary.
For exampe: the service manager actually told me it was not necessary to change the crush sleeve. They did warranty work and I asked why I didn't see the crush sleeve as part of the parts replaced.
Btw, the rearend self destructed 500 miles before warranty ran out at 36000. I put less than 200 miles of their warrantly work for a leaky pinion seal and pinion bearing.
Of course, then it gets down to them not wanting a customer telling them how to do their job. You can't win.
For exampe: the service manager actually told me it was not necessary to change the crush sleeve. They did warranty work and I asked why I didn't see the crush sleeve as part of the parts replaced.
Btw, the rearend self destructed 500 miles before warranty ran out at 36000. I put less than 200 miles of their warrantly work for a leaky pinion seal and pinion bearing.
Of course, then it gets down to them not wanting a customer telling them how to do their job. You can't win.
Al 95 Z28
07-27-2012, 08:25 PM
#25
First off any good diff rebuilder would never use a crush sleeve. Every aspect of a gear change must be perfect. The gears are patterned on a GLEASON MACHINE to run at specific settings. If that new final drive is making NOISE it is not set up correctly. Coast side noise is normally caused by pinion depth. But their are several settings that must be set correctly. Bearing pre-load pinion depth and carrier bearing pre-load must be set correctly. If all these this is on the money the gears will run quiet. Gears that are making noise means they are set up incorrectly.
Pinion pre load must be checked
All bearings must be replaced
Backlash must be correct as well as run out
Never use a crush sleeve. This S10 front diff is from my TYPHOON they do not make a crush sleeve eliminator for this diff. So i made one from scratch. Never use a crush sleeve
Also the ring gear must be pulled on to the carrier evenly. This is how it is dun
Store bought eliminator.
Everything has to be torqued to speck. And never ever use aftermarket bearings races or seals. Factory only for best results. This is from years of experience. Timken bearings are a must. They are the best bearings on the market. And they have the proper number of pillar counts.
Proper back lash is critical. This is a ford 8.8 set at .006 and is the loosest i set a diff. Normally i set them at .002-.003 for high performance usage.
Pinion pre load must be checked
All bearings must be replaced
Backlash must be correct as well as run out
Never use a crush sleeve. This S10 front diff is from my TYPHOON they do not make a crush sleeve eliminator for this diff. So i made one from scratch. Never use a crush sleeve
Also the ring gear must be pulled on to the carrier evenly. This is how it is dun
Store bought eliminator.
Everything has to be torqued to speck. And never ever use aftermarket bearings races or seals. Factory only for best results. This is from years of experience. Timken bearings are a must. They are the best bearings on the market. And they have the proper number of pillar counts.
Proper back lash is critical. This is a ford 8.8 set at .006 and is the loosest i set a diff. Normally i set them at .002-.003 for high performance usage.
Last edited by tom falco; 07-27-2012 at 09:00 PM.
07-27-2012, 08:39 PM
#26
Everything you say sounds reasonsable.
That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.
I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.
No reply necessary - just ranting.
That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.
I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.
No reply necessary - just ranting.
07-27-2012, 08:45 PM
#27
Rear gears should never wine PERIOD i dont care who sets them up. Gm has all different rear axle options in cars and trucks from the factory and they do not wine. I have set up hundreds of 9 inch fords with all different ratios and they are as quiet AS A CHURCH MOUSE AS THEY SHOULD BE.They are not designed to wine from the factory. But some of my friends that use aftermarket gears tell me they have a slight wine. I find it difficult to understand why. With hundresd of different diffs that i have built i have never had a wine when set up properly. Rear axle tools cost a fortune and most mechanics do not have the proper tools or setup experiance to do final drives. Just saying
07-28-2012, 12:39 PM
#28
Everything you say sounds reasonsable.
That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.
I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.
No reply necessary - just ranting.
That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.
I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.
No reply necessary - just ranting.
I do not agree whit the poster that said you should never use a crush sleeve. But that's my OPINION. Eliminating the crush sleeve on a 10 or 12 bolt is not easy, and also not tremendously difficult. It's just another step that you have to remove and install the pinion gear. And if you have to change the pinion depth shim, you have to adjust your crush sleeve eliminator. The factory's used crush sleeves in a hell of a lot of rear ends. 9" Fords are different, and much easier to pick the right shims. Real Dana's are just a complete bitch to set up, period. My advice to anyone that's thinking of replacing rear end gears is to read ALL the noisy rear end posts first.
Al 95 Z28
07-28-2012, 11:07 PM
#29
One reason is the torque arm amplifies any noise the rear end does make. As stated 1,000 times in this forum, setting up a rear end is not as easy as some would lead you to believe. Takes a lot of knowledge and you can't quit when it's close. It has to be perfect.
I do not agree whit the poster that said you should never use a crush sleeve. But that's my OPINION. Eliminating the crush sleeve on a 10 or 12 bolt is not easy, and also not tremendously difficult. It's just another step that you have to remove and install the pinion gear. And if you have to change the pinion depth shim, you have to adjust your crush sleeve eliminator. The factory's used crush sleeves in a hell of a lot of rear ends. 9" Fords are different, and much easier to pick the right shims. Real Dana's are just a complete bitch to set up, period. My advice to anyone that's thinking of replacing rear end gears is to read ALL the noisy rear end posts first.
Al 95 Z28
I do not agree whit the poster that said you should never use a crush sleeve. But that's my OPINION. Eliminating the crush sleeve on a 10 or 12 bolt is not easy, and also not tremendously difficult. It's just another step that you have to remove and install the pinion gear. And if you have to change the pinion depth shim, you have to adjust your crush sleeve eliminator. The factory's used crush sleeves in a hell of a lot of rear ends. 9" Fords are different, and much easier to pick the right shims. Real Dana's are just a complete bitch to set up, period. My advice to anyone that's thinking of replacing rear end gears is to read ALL the noisy rear end posts first.
Al 95 Z28
When adjusting the pinion depth it has nothing to do with the crush sleeve settings. The depth setting is on the other side of the inner races. Running a crush sleeve on a high performance rear axle is looking for trouble. Reason being the pinion nut can back off and they do. Running a solid sleeve will eliminate this condition. Also if down the road a pinion seal replacement becomes necessary it can be dun without installing a new crush sleeve. The info you just gave out is totally incorrect and that is why people have final drives that WINE. You are incorrect about pinion depth and crush sleeve dimensions. They are totally different and one does not effect the other!!! By the way it is much easier to set up pinion load with a solid crush sleeve. Using a stock crush sleeve is much harder and by the way factory rear drives now come stock with a solid crush sleeve from the factory. Also the 7.5 / 7.6 / 8.5 / 8.6 GM and also Fords 8.8 Ring and pinion come in two configurations OLD 5 CUT AND NEW 2 CUT. Your pattern will be different between the two gear sets. The DANA is no different than any other rear drive. They are by no means harder to set up THAT IS JUST NONSENSE AND NOT TRUE!!! Thank You
Last edited by tom falco; 07-29-2012 at 05:53 AM.
07-30-2012, 12:40 PM
#31
When adjusting the pinion depth it has nothing to do with the crush sleeve settings. The depth setting is on the other side of the inner races. Running a crush sleeve on a high performance rear axle is looking for trouble. Reason being the pinion nut can back off and they do. Running a solid sleeve will eliminate this condition. Also if down the road a pinion seal replacement becomes necessary it can be dun without installing a new crush sleeve. The info you just gave out is totally incorrect and that is why people have final drives that WINE. You are incorrect about pinion depth and crush sleeve dimensions. They are totally different and one does not effect the other!!!
Al 95 Z28
07-30-2012, 02:56 PM
#33
07-30-2012, 03:40 PM
#34
And you are saying the less expensive Blue box set when installed makes less noise. Interesting.
07-30-2012, 04:10 PM
#35
There you go. If the gears are cut on the new pattern they are a little noisier. But not in the coast side. It is like an old M22 MUNCIE. The gear cut is shallower for strength. So they wine. That is the answer.
Below is an example!! Look at the gear cut. I also do manual trannys!! This MD is totally shot
Below is an example!! Look at the gear cut. I also do manual trannys!! This MD is totally shot
07-31-2012, 09:17 AM
#39
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I agree with this. However, I've built a ton of rear ends and some of them just have some noise. The same installer can then turn out a rear end that's dead silent. Its a tricky deal. I would not really make it an issue (with the installer) just get used to the noise. Did you install the blue or orange box Motives?
Even used a case spreader, everything by the book.
