Which tranny is stronger?
Thread Starter
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Which tranny is stronger? M21 or M22? I've seen the gear ratios of both (online), but is the M22 stronger? The angle of the cut on the gears is different, which makes me think it'd be stronger that way.
What are the rings? There was a column saying how many rings these different models of manuals have, do they contribute to strength?
Is a M22 stronger than a T56?
J.
What are the rings? There was a column saying how many rings these different models of manuals have, do they contribute to strength?
Is a M22 stronger than a T56?
J.
Thread Starter
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Re: Which tranny is stronger? Well the M22 has nearly straight cut gears, and is supposed to hold up behind some pretty powerful big blocks. On the other hand, I've seen bolt on LS1s have problems with T56s.
TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
From: NC
Re: Which tranny is stronger? The M-22 is quite strong since it does have straight cut gears and very close gear ratio's. It can hold up to plenty big block power. The nickname "Rockcrusher" comes from all the noise from those straight cut gears.Sounds like rocks crushing when out of gear at idle with the clutch let out. About like a zf-6sp without a dual mass flywheel.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Crazyquik:
<strong>Well the M22 has nearly straight cut gears, and is supposed to hold up behind some pretty powerful big blocks. On the other hand, I've seen bolt on LS1s have problems with T56s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The number of people who have had problems with a T56 with a bolt on car could probably be counted on one hand.
I think it says enough that the T56 holds up under the Viper's mountain motor and it far more powerful than any big block of the old days.
<strong>Well the M22 has nearly straight cut gears, and is supposed to hold up behind some pretty powerful big blocks. On the other hand, I've seen bolt on LS1s have problems with T56s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The number of people who have had problems with a T56 with a bolt on car could probably be counted on one hand.
I think it says enough that the T56 holds up under the Viper's mountain motor and it far more powerful than any big block of the old days.
Thread Starter
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Blkout:
<strong>
The number of people who have had problems with a T56 with a bolt on car could probably be counted on one hand.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know 2 people personally, one only has a catback, that have problems with the tranmission popping out of gear. This is out of about 6 people I know with T56s. So a third of T56 owners I know are having/have had problems with them. Of course one of the other 2/3s had a 396 with a 200 shot, ran mid 10s with it, and its never been rebuilt and still works great.
Viper T56s are Borg-Warner aren't they? So were the old Fbody ones. What year did the Fbody T56 switch to Tremec?
J.
<strong>
The number of people who have had problems with a T56 with a bolt on car could probably be counted on one hand.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know 2 people personally, one only has a catback, that have problems with the tranmission popping out of gear. This is out of about 6 people I know with T56s. So a third of T56 owners I know are having/have had problems with them. Of course one of the other 2/3s had a 396 with a 200 shot, ran mid 10s with it, and its never been rebuilt and still works great.
Viper T56s are Borg-Warner aren't they? So were the old Fbody ones. What year did the Fbody T56 switch to Tremec?
J.
Trending Topics
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Crazyquik:
<strong>What are the rings? There was a column saying how many rings these different models of manuals have, do they contribute to strength?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm pretty sure they're talking about the input shaft "rings". They are nothing more than grooves cut into the input shaft to help assembly line workers distinguish between the M-20 (two rings), M-21 (one), and M-22 (none). There were exceptions (Some early M-20 have no rings, which leads people to believe they are M-22) and there are other ways to tell them apart.
Jerry G.
[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: blue1969 ]</p>
<strong>What are the rings? There was a column saying how many rings these different models of manuals have, do they contribute to strength?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm pretty sure they're talking about the input shaft "rings". They are nothing more than grooves cut into the input shaft to help assembly line workers distinguish between the M-20 (two rings), M-21 (one), and M-22 (none). There were exceptions (Some early M-20 have no rings, which leads people to believe they are M-22) and there are other ways to tell them apart.
Jerry G.
[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: blue1969 ]</p>
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
From: IL
Re: Which tranny is stronger? I've gone through roughly 6 LS1 6spd trannies in my bolt-on, 12 sec. LS1. . .
strong my ***!
The T-56 in the LT1 fbodies is a good tranny. . .
The T-56 in the LS1 Fbodies sucks my white ***.
My friend's bolt-on LS1 6spd has had more than enough probs. . .his previous LT1 6spd (which went as quick as the LS1) had ZERO problems and shifted like butter.
strong my ***!
The T-56 in the LT1 fbodies is a good tranny. . .
The T-56 in the LS1 Fbodies sucks my white ***.
My friend's bolt-on LS1 6spd has had more than enough probs. . .his previous LT1 6spd (which went as quick as the LS1) had ZERO problems and shifted like butter.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>I was always told the M22 was the strongest.
And they put the M22 behind the LS6 so I imagine it's a beefy trans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Viper engine is the most powerful production big block of all time. GM had some very potent underrated big blocks like the ZL1 and L88, but they were rated at gross HP, not net HP like the Viper.
The Viper uses a T56 and it hold up fine. The T56 is the strongest manual of the two, I'm quite certain of it, maybe not by much, but it is.
<strong>I was always told the M22 was the strongest.
And they put the M22 behind the LS6 so I imagine it's a beefy trans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Viper engine is the most powerful production big block of all time. GM had some very potent underrated big blocks like the ZL1 and L88, but they were rated at gross HP, not net HP like the Viper.
The Viper uses a T56 and it hold up fine. The T56 is the strongest manual of the two, I'm quite certain of it, maybe not by much, but it is.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Crazyquik:
<strong>
I know 2 people personally, one only has a catback, that have problems with the tranmission popping out of gear. This is out of about 6 people I know with T56s. So a third of T56 owners I know are having/have had problems with them. Of course one of the other 2/3s had a 396 with a 200 shot, ran mid 10s with it, and its never been rebuilt and still works great.
Viper T56s are Borg-Warner aren't they? So were the old Fbody ones. What year did the Fbody T56 switch to Tremec?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
For those having problems with the tranny popping out of gear, its not a fault of the tranny strength, in fact that is not considered broken. There is obviously a defect somewhere or misalignment causing that. That has nothing to do with the strength or the power of the car. The same defective tranny would do the same behind a 4 cylinder car.
As for your other example, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If they are shifted correctly and not abused, they will hold up damn near forever with only minor wear occuring to the synchro's over time. I know many 10 sec F-body's using the factory T56 with no problems.
All T56's are Borg Warner, Tremec only bought out Borg Warner in 2000, its still the same tranny. Its a Tremec by name only,its still a Borg Warner design.
<strong>
I know 2 people personally, one only has a catback, that have problems with the tranmission popping out of gear. This is out of about 6 people I know with T56s. So a third of T56 owners I know are having/have had problems with them. Of course one of the other 2/3s had a 396 with a 200 shot, ran mid 10s with it, and its never been rebuilt and still works great.
Viper T56s are Borg-Warner aren't they? So were the old Fbody ones. What year did the Fbody T56 switch to Tremec?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
For those having problems with the tranny popping out of gear, its not a fault of the tranny strength, in fact that is not considered broken. There is obviously a defect somewhere or misalignment causing that. That has nothing to do with the strength or the power of the car. The same defective tranny would do the same behind a 4 cylinder car.
As for your other example, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If they are shifted correctly and not abused, they will hold up damn near forever with only minor wear occuring to the synchro's over time. I know many 10 sec F-body's using the factory T56 with no problems.
All T56's are Borg Warner, Tremec only bought out Borg Warner in 2000, its still the same tranny. Its a Tremec by name only,its still a Borg Warner design.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by mgreen:
<strong>I've gone through roughly 6 LS1 6spd trannies in my bolt-on, 12 sec. LS1. . .
strong my ***!
The T-56 in the LT1 fbodies is a good tranny. . .
The T-56 in the LS1 Fbodies sucks my white ***.
My friend's bolt-on LS1 6spd has had more than enough probs. . .his previous LT1 6spd (which went as quick as the LS1) had ZERO problems and shifted like butter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you've gone through 6 trannies, I would blame the driver and not the tranny. There is no excuse for going through that many, and I don't mean standard wear and tear items like the clutch or synchros.
I do find it humorous that you think the T56 in the LT1 is better than the T56 in the LS1. Let me let you in on a secret, they are the same tranny. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Are the brakes better on a 95 Z28 compared to a 96 Z28? LOL!!!
Its the same thing, just like the trannies. The T56 has been the same in the F-body since 93, it has NOT changed. The only T56 that is different is the aftermarket version, the Viper T56 has a few minor changes.
<strong>I've gone through roughly 6 LS1 6spd trannies in my bolt-on, 12 sec. LS1. . .
strong my ***!
The T-56 in the LT1 fbodies is a good tranny. . .
The T-56 in the LS1 Fbodies sucks my white ***.
My friend's bolt-on LS1 6spd has had more than enough probs. . .his previous LT1 6spd (which went as quick as the LS1) had ZERO problems and shifted like butter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you've gone through 6 trannies, I would blame the driver and not the tranny. There is no excuse for going through that many, and I don't mean standard wear and tear items like the clutch or synchros.
I do find it humorous that you think the T56 in the LT1 is better than the T56 in the LS1. Let me let you in on a secret, they are the same tranny. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Are the brakes better on a 95 Z28 compared to a 96 Z28? LOL!!!
Its the same thing, just like the trannies. The T56 has been the same in the F-body since 93, it has NOT changed. The only T56 that is different is the aftermarket version, the Viper T56 has a few minor changes.
Thread Starter
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,556
Likes: 0
From: Nawf Carolina
Re: Which tranny is stronger? How much would an aftermarket T56 cost? Who sells them?
Since the M22 has straight cut gears, it could be shifted without syncros easier (like a Hewland, G-Force, Getrag, etc).
J.
Since the M22 has straight cut gears, it could be shifted without syncros easier (like a Hewland, G-Force, Getrag, etc).
J.
Re: Which tranny is stronger? The LT1 cars had two different T56 trannys, they changed one year. The first gear ratio was different. The LT1 and LS1 T56 trannys are identical internally except for the input shafts. Neither input shaft is stronger than the other either.
I've had to rebuild my T56 once per racing season due to worn synchros, but that is all. We are talking about 22,000 miles and 300+ passes at the track per year though.
moving to drivetrain section
Tony
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nine Ball ]</p>
I've had to rebuild my T56 once per racing season due to worn synchros, but that is all. We are talking about 22,000 miles and 300+ passes at the track per year though.
moving to drivetrain section
Tony
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nine Ball ]</p>
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>The LT1 cars had two different T56 trannys, they changed one year. The first gear ratio was different. The LT1 and LS1 T56 trannys are identical internally except for the input shafts. Neither input shaft is stronger than the other either.
I've had to rebuild my T56 once per racing season due to worn synchros, but that is all. We are talking about 22,000 miles and 300+ passes at the track per year though.
moving to drivetrain section
Tony
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nine Ball ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tony, your talking about the 93 model year T56. The gear ratios were slightly more aggresive thus causing them to be slightly weaker. Other than the 93 model year, 94 up is all the same.
And I would say that after what you've put yours through and only needing synchros, that's a damn good testament to its durability.
The only thing that should need replacing is the clutch and synchros, but those are normal wear and tear items.
<strong>The LT1 cars had two different T56 trannys, they changed one year. The first gear ratio was different. The LT1 and LS1 T56 trannys are identical internally except for the input shafts. Neither input shaft is stronger than the other either.
I've had to rebuild my T56 once per racing season due to worn synchros, but that is all. We are talking about 22,000 miles and 300+ passes at the track per year though.
moving to drivetrain section
Tony
[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nine Ball ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tony, your talking about the 93 model year T56. The gear ratios were slightly more aggresive thus causing them to be slightly weaker. Other than the 93 model year, 94 up is all the same.
And I would say that after what you've put yours through and only needing synchros, that's a damn good testament to its durability.
The only thing that should need replacing is the clutch and synchros, but those are normal wear and tear items.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by Crazyquik:
<strong>How much would an aftermarket T56 cost? Who sells them?
Since the M22 has straight cut gears, it could be shifted without syncros easier (like a Hewland, G-Force, Getrag, etc).
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The aftermarket T56 is about $2,600, I have no idea who sells them I have not needed one yet, LOL. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
<strong>How much would an aftermarket T56 cost? Who sells them?
Since the M22 has straight cut gears, it could be shifted without syncros easier (like a Hewland, G-Force, Getrag, etc).
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The aftermarket T56 is about $2,600, I have no idea who sells them I have not needed one yet, LOL. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Re: Which tranny is stronger? the m-22 is unbelievably strong. imo, the t56 (as much as i love it) would not be able to hold up as far as a m-22 could. the input shaft is super strong, not to mention the almost straight cut gears. it was like a factory racing tranny. and since when has the viper had more hp and torque than the old school muscle car big blocks...i dont think so. <img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" /> granted, that 80k car w/ 10 cylinders is super fast, but even w/ that hefty price tag and 2 extra cylinders could never compare to the 427's of the past, theres just no way being na w/ the emissions crap today. but back to my original opinion, if i had a 9 sec car, i would put my trust in a m-22 anyday before i would a t-56... just my .02
Re: Which tranny is stronger? Viper T56 has a different and beefier input shaft.
Every driven an M22 with every other tooth removed? Nothing like shifting without the clutch...
Crashbox John
Every driven an M22 with every other tooth removed? Nothing like shifting without the clutch...
Crashbox John
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Re: Which tranny is stronger? [quote]Originally posted by restoman45:
<strong>the m-22 is unbelievably strong. imo, the t56 (as much as i love it) would not be able to hold up as far as a m-22 could. the input shaft is super strong, not to mention the almost straight cut gears. it was like a factory racing tranny. and since when has the viper had more hp and torque than the old school muscle car big blocks...i dont think so. <img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" /> granted, that 80k car w/ 10 cylinders is super fast, but even w/ that hefty price tag and 2 extra cylinders could never compare to the 427's of the past, theres just no way being na w/ the emissions crap today. but back to my original opinion, if i had a 9 sec car, i would put my trust in a m-22 anyday before i would a t-56... just my .02</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since day one the Viper has had more power than even the most powerful old school factory big blocks. I even went a step further and quted the most powerful big blokc fromt he muscle car days. The ZL1 was by far the most powerful and even then they only made 69 of them for racing. It was rated at 425 gross HP from the fatory which most people agree was actually closer to 500 grossHP, but even then, that was rated in GROSS HP, not NET HP, the 2003 Viper makes over 500 NET HP and over 500 ft.lbs. of torque.
It is the most powerful big block to date, and it uses the T56, and yes John is right, the Viper T56 input shaft is slighty stronger, but the internals are very similar to our F-body T56.
<strong>the m-22 is unbelievably strong. imo, the t56 (as much as i love it) would not be able to hold up as far as a m-22 could. the input shaft is super strong, not to mention the almost straight cut gears. it was like a factory racing tranny. and since when has the viper had more hp and torque than the old school muscle car big blocks...i dont think so. <img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" /> granted, that 80k car w/ 10 cylinders is super fast, but even w/ that hefty price tag and 2 extra cylinders could never compare to the 427's of the past, theres just no way being na w/ the emissions crap today. but back to my original opinion, if i had a 9 sec car, i would put my trust in a m-22 anyday before i would a t-56... just my .02</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since day one the Viper has had more power than even the most powerful old school factory big blocks. I even went a step further and quted the most powerful big blokc fromt he muscle car days. The ZL1 was by far the most powerful and even then they only made 69 of them for racing. It was rated at 425 gross HP from the fatory which most people agree was actually closer to 500 grossHP, but even then, that was rated in GROSS HP, not NET HP, the 2003 Viper makes over 500 NET HP and over 500 ft.lbs. of torque.
It is the most powerful big block to date, and it uses the T56, and yes John is right, the Viper T56 input shaft is slighty stronger, but the internals are very similar to our F-body T56.
Re: Which tranny is stronger? M-21= small block~350 output shaft. M-22= Big Block~400 outpute shaft. (yoke, front of driveshaft) that's how I always ID them. <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> Hope this helps. by the way, an old mech told me this. works for me.