Gear pattern questions..HELP
07-23-2007, 05:04 PM
#1
Gear pattern questions..HELP trying to get this rear setup...its on my bench, and its for a friend. im trying to get the pinion depth setup, and using shims to try and get the gear pattern nice and centered.
Here is what i have.
drive side is the one with all of the gear marking compound on the tooth. The coast side is the inverse with the gear marking compund marking the pattern.
if i take shim out of the pinion..it should want to move the pattern towards the center more correct? right now the pattern moved slightly center (away from the inside of the ring gear) and i just about just the shim size in half. it almost seems as if i take the shim out all together i should have a good pattern
Here is what i have.
drive side is the one with all of the gear marking compound on the tooth. The coast side is the inverse with the gear marking compund marking the pattern.
if i take shim out of the pinion..it should want to move the pattern towards the center more correct? right now the pattern moved slightly center (away from the inside of the ring gear) and i just about just the shim size in half. it almost seems as if i take the shim out all together i should have a good pattern
07-24-2007, 08:36 PM
#5
Originally Posted by HFLDtA
- THATS WHAT SHE SAID
Looks like a racing setup. Remove some shims from the pinion.
Looks like a racing setup. Remove some shims from the pinion.
07-24-2007, 10:09 PM
#6
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by chicane
Its too deep.
What ratio, manufacturer and depth shim... and, throw in the backlash number as well.
What ratio, manufacturer and depth shim... and, throw in the backlash number as well.
07-25-2007, 12:51 AM
#7
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gear set-up You have to give the shim pack thicknesses and backlash setting or we can not help you on the set-up. Right now your just guessing...YOU can not set a rear by just throwing shims in and out and slapping the carrier back in the case with out resetting the backlash to the same mark after each pinion shim change.
If you do not have the dial indicator borrow one or buy one YOU NEED IT. What was the original shim from the old gear set. try to strat with that and then move in increments of .005 to check for changes. BUT you must keep your backlash consistant or you will be fooled into a false pattern.
Good luck Jim -J D Race.com
If you do not have the dial indicator borrow one or buy one YOU NEED IT. What was the original shim from the old gear set. try to strat with that and then move in increments of .005 to check for changes. BUT you must keep your backlash consistant or you will be fooled into a false pattern.
Good luck Jim -J D Race.com
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07-25-2007, 03:02 PM
#8
thanks everyone..its been a crazy couple of days. Im going to put a caliper on the shims and let you know what ive found as soon as i finish work.
I started with the shim that came out of the other gear set, then started taking shim out all while keeping the backlash the same. i dont have a pinion depth tool, and dont understand how all of these people can just slap these things in and get it right, yet i pull my hair out when trying to make sure its exact lol.
I started with the shim that came out of the other gear set, then started taking shim out all while keeping the backlash the same. i dont have a pinion depth tool, and dont understand how all of these people can just slap these things in and get it right, yet i pull my hair out when trying to make sure its exact lol.
07-25-2007, 09:06 PM
#11
TECH Fanatic
About 95% of the 7.5" 4.11 Richmonds that I have done set up with 0.036-0.037".
Have you installed new bears as well ?? If so... just make sure that the bearing land is flat.
Have you installed new bears as well ?? If so... just make sure that the bearing land is flat.
07-26-2007, 09:24 PM
#13
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What are you setting backlash at? From the pattern it looks like you could bring it in some since it seems to be riding the top of the tooth.
Like stated already, backlash will make you think you have the depth wrong. If I have the old set available I usually measure the thickness of the pinion head on the old one and then the new one and adjust the shim for the difference. If you are using a pinion depth tool you are measuring off of the pinion head anyway, so this will usually get you really close.
Also do not rely on feel for backlash. I had a guy tell me that he set them up by feel so we made a bet and measured the next 5 rears he did. They were all close, within .005", but when you are shooting for .008" that just dont cut it.
Like stated already, backlash will make you think you have the depth wrong. If I have the old set available I usually measure the thickness of the pinion head on the old one and then the new one and adjust the shim for the difference. If you are using a pinion depth tool you are measuring off of the pinion head anyway, so this will usually get you really close.
Also do not rely on feel for backlash. I had a guy tell me that he set them up by feel so we made a bet and measured the next 5 rears he did. They were all close, within .005", but when you are shooting for .008" that just dont cut it.
07-26-2007, 09:26 PM
#14
All gear sets should have some sort of marking on the pinion to determine proper depth.
When I set up a rear, I usually start with what was in there, and add or subtract the different in head dimension...unless Im setting the pinion depth from scratch using a depth tool. USUALLY...atleast with the dana axles that Ive done, you can get pretty darn close using the same shims that were in the old set up. THen its just fine adjustments..usually I get it on the next try.
Something isnt right if you take out shims and the pattern doesnt move. The other guys are correct in saying that we need backlash setting, and shim thicknesses.
Didnt you have issues with the pinion not turning smoothly awhile back? When you are doing a set up, are you doing it without a crush sleeve and making the preload the same each time?
Small shim changes usually produce pretty decent changes, and removing shims all together should have made a dramatic change in my opinion...
Justin
EDIT... Hey I just had another thought. Are you making sure that the carrier is seated all the way and there isnt anything under the races or the bearing caps causing the carrier to be alittle crooked?? Sometimes you'll never notice the smallest little piece of garbage, but it will throw things off.
When I set up a rear, I usually start with what was in there, and add or subtract the different in head dimension...unless Im setting the pinion depth from scratch using a depth tool. USUALLY...atleast with the dana axles that Ive done, you can get pretty darn close using the same shims that were in the old set up. THen its just fine adjustments..usually I get it on the next try.
Something isnt right if you take out shims and the pattern doesnt move. The other guys are correct in saying that we need backlash setting, and shim thicknesses.
Didnt you have issues with the pinion not turning smoothly awhile back? When you are doing a set up, are you doing it without a crush sleeve and making the preload the same each time?
Small shim changes usually produce pretty decent changes, and removing shims all together should have made a dramatic change in my opinion...
Justin
EDIT... Hey I just had another thought. Are you making sure that the carrier is seated all the way and there isnt anything under the races or the bearing caps causing the carrier to be alittle crooked?? Sometimes you'll never notice the smallest little piece of garbage, but it will throw things off.
07-27-2007, 09:49 PM
#15
I took a few days off from messing with this thing. The backspace is always reset at .006 when checking depth. It got to the point were i was just shooting in teh dark so i stopped.
Im going to work on it with a clean head tomorrow morning. I made sure that the entire bearing surfaces are clean and clear before i set the carrier back in its place.
Stay posted. Thanks again for the input, im going to make sure i keep what everyone said in teh back of my mind while im doing this tomorrow.
Stock shim in there was .029. I dont recall ever adding shims, so i may go in small increments. One gentleman here said that all of the richmonds he installed were at .036-.037. I have a shim combo that will hit that dead on, so im going to work my way up to that and see how she comes out. Thanks!
Im going to work on it with a clean head tomorrow morning. I made sure that the entire bearing surfaces are clean and clear before i set the carrier back in its place.
Stay posted. Thanks again for the input, im going to make sure i keep what everyone said in teh back of my mind while im doing this tomorrow.
Stock shim in there was .029. I dont recall ever adding shims, so i may go in small increments. One gentleman here said that all of the richmonds he installed were at .036-.037. I have a shim combo that will hit that dead on, so im going to work my way up to that and see how she comes out. Thanks!
07-28-2007, 04:12 PM
#17
i measured the stock shim again with a new battery in my caliper...stock shim was .031. I started at .037 as one of the gentleman said that he used most of the time. The pattern looked about the same still. The gears still made a horrible sound when spinning them as if they were banging into eachother. The pinion gear and ring gear spin fine while rotating, however they just make noise.
I went back down to a .035 shim, and it wants still makes that sound. The gear pattern isnt moving any measureable amount.
I put the yoke on, put a dial indicator on it, there isnt any runout on it, so i dont think any of the bearing surfaces are on crooked.
I went back down to a .035 shim, and it wants still makes that sound. The gear pattern isnt moving any measureable amount.
I put the yoke on, put a dial indicator on it, there isnt any runout on it, so i dont think any of the bearing surfaces are on crooked.
07-29-2007, 08:44 PM
#19
Nice...
Those little burrs will get ya every time.
I had a shop teacher in college for a "machining tech" course, and he stressed, and I mean STRESSED the "checking for burrs" stuff. So much that we would get sick of it and poke fun.
Glad you got it bro!
Justin
Those little burrs will get ya every time.
I had a shop teacher in college for a "machining tech" course, and he stressed, and I mean STRESSED the "checking for burrs" stuff. So much that we would get sick of it and poke fun.
Glad you got it bro!
Justin
