stevieturbo

Ive just stripped my 8.8" to fit a new diff, to replace that god awful spool Ive bee using.

I think I have a minor problem though.

The shaft on the right side of the car, does appear to have a very slight twist in it. These are Moser 31 spline axles/shafts I had custom made to suit my application. Leaky Moser C-Clip elims also. I had upgraded because I twisted a 28spline.....didnt expect this to happen.
I only fitted these axles in may this year, and they havent seen that much use. Some road miles, plus some low-mid 10s passes with best 60fts of 1.7x on 255/50x16 MT DR's



My question is....what is my next step ? Any upgrade MUST have a diff that is totally suitable for road use, and not drive or behave anything like a spool, EVER.

So if "locker" style diffs do that, then it is not an option for me.

So are there any 33 or 35 spline systems that would work, with a suitable LSD ? And will they fit onto my current axle ends. If Im going to have to get 9" flanges welded on, then upgrading to a 9" may ultimately be a smarter option.
There isnt anywhere near me that could perform this operation, and shipping to and from anywhere that could, would be very expensive.

I can go to pretty much any type of axle, as they will all be a custom install. A front loader would be nice, for ease of working. The only criteria that must be met, is that I need an axle that is approx 62.5" wide, measured from drive flange to drive flange outer faces, and that I can retain a gears around 3.40-3.55:1
I'll need custom shafts anyway to suit my 5x112mm PCD, and I will sort any mounting brackets, brakes etc myself.
And cant forget a non locker style diff... lol

Fully floating shafts would be nice too )

Help

dailydriver

Stevie; are you turning that monster into a Manx TT type car??!

I hear you on the spool thing. A lot of the high powered, tube framed, solid rear axled road race cars here use Detroit Lockers (for the most part because they are required to by the rules for their classes). I'm not sure you could put up with the noise from this unit, and for as much rain as you get, they are pretty bad in the wet on corner entry/exit (if you don't change to full depth wet compound rain racing tires every time it drizzles!!).

I'm not positive (hopefully others that know 8.8s better will chime in), but I think there are Eaton/Detroit True Tracs made for the Ford 8.8s. I've also heard that Torsen makes a high bias T2R for those axles, but there could be a supply problem with those (and with the power you're making, it probably would not last as long as the Locker or True Trac).

As far as turning your 8.8 into a full floater; I would contact some of the Ford/Mustang/Fox body road race companies/tuners/builders about that. I'm sure it's been done somewhere along the line, but since MANY have already done it (it is what all of those afforementioned road racing Detroit Lockers are in), a 9" full floater would be the easiest/quickest solution.

stevieturbo

nope, just a quickish road car

And dont talk to me about supply problem !!!! I ordered a T2R over 6 months ago, and the lack of one is the reason I bought a spool !!!! I needed something to get me driving again, and it was the cheapest option. I had thought the guy I was buying it from was just messing about.
I got fed up waiting, and ordered a Ford Racing 31spline Torsen from summit 2 weeks ago, and it was fitting that today, I discovered the 31 spline had twisted.

If Im getting into cutting up the 8.8", there isnt anywhere local that can do that sort of work. So I'd have to ship it to someone who could. And Id be dumping all the 8.8" bits I have anyway..shafts, diff etc. So what is the benefit of keeping it ?
Although, maybe I could have a go at cutting/welding it myself

the 9" is starting to look like the best option...plus a drop to 3.50 from 3.55 would be welcomed.
ive asked the same questions over on Corral, but still no replies.

stevieturbo

So in Summary...

Are there any stronger 8.8" 31 spline shafts that can be bought, as opposed to Moser ?

That is my cheapest solution.

2nd.
What is involved in fitting larger shafts to my 8.8", and what costs, diff options etc.

3rdly
What sort of price is a complete 9" rear, no brackets welded on ( but 4link and shock/coilover mounts supplied ), 62.5" wide drive flange to drive flange. Custom 5 stud, with street happy LSD, 3.50 gears.

Fit and forget solution required

chicane

Sure.

(But not to detract from the sponsers here) My suggestion would be to call Bret at Mark Williams and get all of your answers with a single phone call.

The splines in your picture are not too bad. I wouldnt call them twisted either... it looks more to be impact compression of the splines due to an incorrect spline angle being cut into the alxe shaft vs the spline angle being used in the spool. That can be corrected with the proper involute profile and pressure angles being machined into the components you use. Sometimes, mix and matching components from different manufacturers will yield this problem.

2. To fit larger axles into that peticular housing you will need axles, larger housing ends and a carrier that will accept the shafts and properly fit into the 8.8 carrier bearings. And that is going to be the weakness...

The carrier bearing is pretty much what limits you to a peticular axle shaft diameter. The larger you go, the thinner the carrier journel becomes and the weaker it gets. Sure the axle becomes measurably stronger, but something else gives it up for that.

The housing ends are simple. You can put an axle and bearing on the tube with ease as long as it fits the tube diameter.

3. The answer to three is kinda subjective. It can be anywhere from $2000.00 to $5000.00 considering your options... but I would guess it would be more like $2500.00 to $3000.00 for your requirements.

stevieturbo

Thanks Chicane, I have emailed Mark Williams, Moser, Strange, and a few others already.

It was a Strange spool, and Moser shafts that I was using. So the different brands thought, is possible. there was talk of this on Corral, when I was searching...just after I bought the spool of course :S...typical.

The current bearing carriers Im using are the "large" Moser c-clip elims. Shaft diam at that point is circa 1 1/2" ( 1.53" is it I think ? )

Given any weakness I have seen is at the diff end, surely I do have room to grow, with my current axle ends ?

After yet more searching.

I see both Moser and Strange do list 33 spline shafts, and a 33spline diff.

Moser list an Auburn diff. Strange dont mention names, but say they offer a "Pro Clutch" style 33 spline for an 8.8"

Perhaps they are the same, or not. What method of operation is a Pro Clutch ? Would be nice if it wasnt a locker.

Also some seem to suggest that Moser shafts, dont even come close to Strange's in terms of strength.

Any thoughts on that ?

chicane

The thing I think is... you dont need a larger axleshaft, you just need a better axleshaft.

I would also nix the c-clip eliminators (and axles) and go to a weld on housing end... for saftey's sake alone.

In the case of the 8.8, if you strengthen one item, it weakends another. If you merely stepped up to a stronger axleshaft without changing its mean diameter... would the rest of your current set-up still meet your requirements ??

Moser, Strange, Foot, Superior and pretty much all others (other than Summers Brothers, Speedway Engineering and some other private machinists axles)... dont even come close to what MW has accomplished. I would tend to agree... that the Strange units are stronger, yet however, it is infinitesmal. They keep making larger axles to yield the increase... instead of using better design and materials.

Here is one of my latest projects with MW. They are 4340, 31 spline axles set up for a 9" that are being used in a 650+bhp - 1968 F-body chassis, with traction control, for the "One Lap of America":



The "Pro Clutch" that Strange is referring to is a EATON limited slip with a substaintial increase in pre-load... eg, 800lbs or more of pre-load. Its about the tightest thing you can get to in a clutch type, this side of a locker. It is noisy (like it drags the inside tire everywhere) and it eats fiber clutch packs.

I guess the question is... are you satisified with the 8.8 ?? Or do you feel you need to upgrade to meet current and future needs ??

If you are satisified, I say run it. A set of axles and housing ends and your done. Or... step up to the time and cost of installing something else ??

stevieturbo

I dont know what I am, and I dont have enough info on whats available. Few places respond to emails...at least in a favourable way. It seems like I am asking the for the moon and the starts with my requirements.

Strange initially responded quite favourably, then I get this. WTF ? Drive flange too hard ? I cant use press in studs ? Why not ? All the bloody drive flange needs is a hole in it !!!!

Even if I was to upgrade to a strong 9" or 12 bolt, what diff options are available, in big spline units ?

At present, I am happy with my 8.8", and if stronger components are available, then I see little reason to change, and it would be by far the easiest cheapest option.
eg. what benefit will 9" axle ends give me over the C-Clip elims ?

I also read that a 9" pinion might be a lot lower than a 8.8", which might cause me driveshaft angle issues ? Is this the case ?

So far Moser has replied....no joy there with regards to 8.8" options.
Strange are no longer being helpful it seems.
MW's response was to call them...still havent done this yet. Emailing is SOOO much handier for me.
TeamZ said get Strange shafts and diff....see above though lol

I'll call MW on Monday and see what they say.

chicane

Drag race and road race axles 'see' different loading. The drage race axles see more tortional load and road race axles see tortional as well as... side loading. When you get into specific requirements/applications... they can require specific materials to improve its strength.

Most custom aftermarket axles use threaded studs. It is though of as.. "if you go this far, you may as well do it right". A threaded hole in the flange is stronger... not to mention that replacement is far easier.

I still question why you think that you need a larger axle's ?? The money is better spent on material upgrades over that of cheaper materials in a larger diameter.

Differential options... open (31), Track Loc (31), Auburn (31), True Trac (31), Detroit locker (31 & 35), ARB air locker (31 & 35), Gold (or platinum) track (31), Diamond Track (31), Torsen Gleason (31) and the venerable spool (31, 35 & 40).

9" housing ends offer you an array of bear sizes and types. For instance, for a drag race set-up a ball roller is prefered... but for a road race/street bearing, a tapered roller is prefered. The 9" housing ends are also stronger than c-clip eliminators could ever dream of being. C-clip eliminators are an inexpensive (read: cheap) way to rid yourself of c-clip axles but are prone to leaking and are not quite as strong as press-on style bearings.

The 9" pinion centerline is lower... but its not quite a boat anchor. Its also doesnt change your pinion angle... it only changes the shaft angle.

Here is a link to the "normal" off the shelf 8.8 offerings from MW:

Page 32

Page 33

They also offer 33 spline stuff for the 8.8... which is rather choice for 8.8 stuff.

stevieturbo

I feel the need to go bigger, simply because my current 31splines appear to be marked in one way or another. Whether its actually a concern, I dont know.
What material are the Moser shafts, and how strong actually are they ?? Ive no idea either. So I dont know how much this can be improved upon...hence "bigger is better" line of thought.

Re Studs.
Im in the UK, and my setup is metric. I doubt there are many M12x1.5 screw in stud offerings for me ?? Although would be nice to be proved wrong. I dont honestly see why threading and screwing in studs, would be any stronger than press in studs though ??
I guess 1/2" studs could be used, with some slight drilling of my wheels, assuming I can then get lug nuts to suit my Alloys.
I will not change my wheels though.( Although some of the Fikse alloys arent bad lol but thats a massive expense, so it aint happening.)

I have been looking at the MW stuff, and I will now phone them. I had just hoped they might have been more helpful via email. But when I thought Strange were able to offer me something, I though I was sorted.

If I could be supplied the tooling to jig the axle up for welding 9" ends on, then I could probably do that ok....But I'd also need to make new brake caliper mounting brackets, as at present, these mount to 3 of the 8.8" flange bolt holes.
Another reason why I want to retain this setup.
I can suffer the leaky C-Clips at the minute....I added an oil seal inside the axle tube, so it isnt a big problem anymore.

I think shaft length might also change if I fitted 9" housing ends on too ? So really, for the hassle and work to get that done.....It would maybe be better just to go all out on a new axle instead. £$£$£$$£ which I am trying to avoid if possible.

At present the c-clip elim sits tight to the end of my shaft, very close to the drive flange. ( pic of my first small diam 28spline shaft, straight at splined section, OE diameter at c-clip, although these ones did my 10.04 etc with no worrying markings. I only changed them to the larger style, after I damaged one with an angle grinder removing the c-clip elim, as a bearing had went bad ).


This was the large diam Moser 28 spline I upgraded to late last year/early this year. The shaft had obviously been re-splined smaller, as it did taper down at the splined bit and you could clearly see the new machining. This took the larger c-clip elim bearings.



SO, I upgraded to their 31 spline units....

I just want to get the strongest setup, for the least money and hassle possible. If work involves sending the casing abroad for work, then it can get very expensive, and awkward. Which is why Im trying to avoid that at all costs. At that point, it would be easier and cheaper just to start with a new casing.
But if Im going to a new casing, new shafts.....what do I choose ??? as its basically a totally new setup anyway.
But the fabricated 9" stuff does look good

You can see my dilemna.

mullenh

iTrader: (1)

you could go with 35 spline but then you have to change out gears, locker etc.. The power you are generating may require the larger axle though.

dailydriver

I've also heard that the 800# pre-load springs eventually end up bending their backing plates as well. Do you have any info on this chicane??

chicane

They pretty much rectified that by increasing the pre-load pack plate thickness. They are much thicker than the 40 year old OEM and 200/400 lb plates. You can get these sperate for EATON... as well as the steel clutch plates.

When I 'tune' an EATON... and that is if I keep the pre-load pack in the unit... I always opt for the thicker plates. The majority of the higher effort builds that I have done have been sans pre load pack.