Gear installation gone wrong?
Hi fellow MNer,
As someone mentioned earlier you got shafted on the install. Telling you that the failure resulted from you driving 70miles without stopping for a cool down is ridiculous.
My theory is they didn't crush that sleeve appropriately. A sleeve is a ***** to crush. Takes alot of torque but you have to crush it just right. Too little torque and you have play similar to what you have in the video.
Too much torque and the pinion bearing is pushed in too far into its race and will heat up within the race due to too much friction and wear out. In the latter case, one of the symptoms would be a high pitched whine from the bearing rather than a loose pinion.
This is why you need pinion preload specs to crush the sleeve just right.
here is a sample of a video explaining how to properly set pinion preload. Notice the play before the correct preload is achieved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APYO...eature=related
With rear ends you just have to get it right or it will bite back. No room for errors.
All the best
As someone mentioned earlier you got shafted on the install. Telling you that the failure resulted from you driving 70miles without stopping for a cool down is ridiculous.
My theory is they didn't crush that sleeve appropriately. A sleeve is a ***** to crush. Takes alot of torque but you have to crush it just right. Too little torque and you have play similar to what you have in the video.
Too much torque and the pinion bearing is pushed in too far into its race and will heat up within the race due to too much friction and wear out. In the latter case, one of the symptoms would be a high pitched whine from the bearing rather than a loose pinion.
This is why you need pinion preload specs to crush the sleeve just right.
here is a sample of a video explaining how to properly set pinion preload. Notice the play before the correct preload is achieved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APYO...eature=related
With rear ends you just have to get it right or it will bite back. No room for errors.
All the best
Thread Starter
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From: Hutchinson, MN
Thanks guys for your input. The shop says they will take care of it.
To me a bad situation turned good shows what level of customer service a shop is good for.
QC fails every so often and especially so when I have work done it seems.
Peoples word is all I can go on and when they truly stand behind it I can't dispute it.
Time will tell weather or not their word is worth anything.
To me a bad situation turned good shows what level of customer service a shop is good for.
QC fails every so often and especially so when I have work done it seems.
Peoples word is all I can go on and when they truly stand behind it I can't dispute it.
Time will tell weather or not their word is worth anything.
One of the mechanics told me the pinion bearing ate itself because I drove it 70 miles straight during the breakin in process. Said the preload and everything is so tight that there is a reason why they have people drive it 30 miles let it cool all the way off and go again 2-3 more times like that.
I'm calling BS on that, if there is THAT much load on the bearing it would wear out no matter what kind of break in I did. RIGHT?
It was suppose to be done today, it told them that multiple times. I won't be done until tomorrow after noon.
**** i'm so pissed i'm shaking.
I'm calling BS on that, if there is THAT much load on the bearing it would wear out no matter what kind of break in I did. RIGHT?
It was suppose to be done today, it told them that multiple times. I won't be done until tomorrow after noon.
**** i'm so pissed i'm shaking.
Thread Starter
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From: Hutchinson, MN
I just got a call back from the installer. He informed me that the pinion nut backed off.
The gears have a pattern started on them.
Here are the options he gave me.
Option 1. Use the extra crush sleve and pinion seal and re install the gears.
intermission from him- I don't ******* appreciate you slamming me on the internet before we get this taken care of. * I ignored that and asked about option 2 because I'll have my say when I receive the car.*
Option 2. He has new 3.73 gears he would sell me and not charge me for the install.
I told him that I don't want 3.73's I bought 3.42's for a reason. So install the crush sleve and pinion seal and let me know when its done.
He said it will take him a couple hours to do it. When he calls me back I will let him know I expect him to trailer the car back to me since he came out and got it from me.
It shouldn't be my logistical nightmare trying to figure out how i'm going to get a car thats 70 miles away.
So riddle me this... How does a pinion nut that is suppose to be tightened to ~200ftlbs back off the pinion.
If it howls like a banshee I'll have to learn to do a gear install the hard way. With my wallet for double the price.
Pissed... ... you could say that.
The gears have a pattern started on them.
Here are the options he gave me.
Option 1. Use the extra crush sleve and pinion seal and re install the gears.
intermission from him- I don't ******* appreciate you slamming me on the internet before we get this taken care of. * I ignored that and asked about option 2 because I'll have my say when I receive the car.*
Option 2. He has new 3.73 gears he would sell me and not charge me for the install.
I told him that I don't want 3.73's I bought 3.42's for a reason. So install the crush sleve and pinion seal and let me know when its done.
He said it will take him a couple hours to do it. When he calls me back I will let him know I expect him to trailer the car back to me since he came out and got it from me.
It shouldn't be my logistical nightmare trying to figure out how i'm going to get a car thats 70 miles away.
So riddle me this... How does a pinion nut that is suppose to be tightened to ~200ftlbs back off the pinion.
If it howls like a banshee I'll have to learn to do a gear install the hard way. With my wallet for double the price.
Pissed... ... you could say that.
FWIW, every NEW aftermarket automotive pinion nut I've ever seen has thread locking compound on it's threads already, or techinician applies LocTite to be able to re-use the old one.
Bottom Line...They don't just "back off" or "loosen up" on their own, especially in the little distance you drove the car...but it does appear they are trying to make things right. Damn shame the job wasn't done right to begin with though.
Good Luck.
They should have at least used red Loctite, and *****-punched the nut if it is an oem style nut. There is no reason the pinion nut should have come loose. Good luck with the rest of the ordeal.
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Brett Foote Thread Starter
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From: Hutchinson, MN
Even though you're set on 342's, I think given the circumstances, I'd take Option#2...
FWIW, every NEW aftermarket automotive pinion nut I've ever seen has thread locking compound on it's threads already, or techinician applies LocTite to be able to re-use the old one.
Bottom Line...They don't just "back off" or "loosen up" on their own, especially in the little distance you drove the car...but it does appear they are trying to make things right. Damn shame the job wasn't done right to begin with though.
Good Luck.
FWIW, every NEW aftermarket automotive pinion nut I've ever seen has thread locking compound on it's threads already, or techinician applies LocTite to be able to re-use the old one.
Bottom Line...They don't just "back off" or "loosen up" on their own, especially in the little distance you drove the car...but it does appear they are trying to make things right. Damn shame the job wasn't done right to begin with though.
Good Luck.
Lesson learned with my wallet. If I want something done correctly I have to do it myself. Even if I don't know how at the time I would have measured 3 times and cut once type thing before I did anything.
I just wondering when and how I will get my damn car back and in what condition.
Thread Starter
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From: Hutchinson, MN
I f'd up and didn't ask you if you did gears in the first place. For some reason I didn't think you did.
Thread Starter
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From: Hutchinson, MN
This was in a pm that was sent to me by a member on here.
Glad I was some help to you. This is what I do for a living, so it pisses me off when I see it happen over and over again to people.
It looks like the place is taking care of it, so that's a big plus IMO.
I attached a picture of a pinion gear with Rear Pinion bearing pressed on, and crush collar slid into place.
The actual toothed gear on the pinion is what you'd see looking into the housing from behind the car.
Directly in front of it would be a shim, between pinion gear and rear pinion bearing. The shim dictates how far the pinion is set into the front of the housing at initial install. Thicker shim = gear more towards rear of car, Thinner = closer to front of car. This is very important step of install.
After the shim, is the rear pinion bearing. It is the one that is pressed on.
Circled in YELLOW above, is the crush sleeve, or crush collar. It slides onto the pinion shaft up to a lip that is built onto the shaft.
Then the pinion shaft/gear is slid into the housing.
From the front slides on the FRONT pinion bearing.
Next is the pinion seal, installed into housing to prevent leaks.
Next would be the pinion FLANGE, which is what the driveshaft/u-joint bolts to.
Flange is secured with a pinion nut.
What happens is when the pinion nut is tightened, it "crushes" the crush sleeve (or collar), against the lip on the pinion gear's shaft. This is what dictates the preload on BOTH pinion bearings. It takes roughly 200/ft./lbs. of torque to crush a new crush collar. (btw, Not sure where 40 ft/lbs. came from, but that is nowhere near enough pressure to crush the collar, which is why I doubt the whole bearing race not being seated theory. 200ft/lbs+ of pressure would seat the race IMO)
Then an inch/pound torque wrench is used to measure "drag" on the pinion when turning it. That is how preload is set. Usually about 15 in/lbs. is the end goal of pinion preload. If collar is over crushed, it is worthless since it would make preload too tight. You can't simply back off the pinion nut, you literally have to start almost from the beginning.
My guess is this is what happened. I NEVER break-in a rear I build. The gearsets are already heat treated and mated to one another out of the box. The bearings do not need a break-in either. Like I said in thread, if they're setup right and have oil to them, they're made to last a very long time.
I'm guessing since they know they screwed up the install, that is why they are taking care of everything, even if they do not admit it. Nobody is going to re-do a complete rear gear swap job if the customer supplied parts are defective.
Hope everything works out for you,.
It looks like the place is taking care of it, so that's a big plus IMO.
I attached a picture of a pinion gear with Rear Pinion bearing pressed on, and crush collar slid into place.
The actual toothed gear on the pinion is what you'd see looking into the housing from behind the car.
Directly in front of it would be a shim, between pinion gear and rear pinion bearing. The shim dictates how far the pinion is set into the front of the housing at initial install. Thicker shim = gear more towards rear of car, Thinner = closer to front of car. This is very important step of install.
After the shim, is the rear pinion bearing. It is the one that is pressed on.
Circled in YELLOW above, is the crush sleeve, or crush collar. It slides onto the pinion shaft up to a lip that is built onto the shaft.
Then the pinion shaft/gear is slid into the housing.
From the front slides on the FRONT pinion bearing.
Next is the pinion seal, installed into housing to prevent leaks.
Next would be the pinion FLANGE, which is what the driveshaft/u-joint bolts to.
Flange is secured with a pinion nut.
What happens is when the pinion nut is tightened, it "crushes" the crush sleeve (or collar), against the lip on the pinion gear's shaft. This is what dictates the preload on BOTH pinion bearings. It takes roughly 200/ft./lbs. of torque to crush a new crush collar. (btw, Not sure where 40 ft/lbs. came from, but that is nowhere near enough pressure to crush the collar, which is why I doubt the whole bearing race not being seated theory. 200ft/lbs+ of pressure would seat the race IMO)
Then an inch/pound torque wrench is used to measure "drag" on the pinion when turning it. That is how preload is set. Usually about 15 in/lbs. is the end goal of pinion preload. If collar is over crushed, it is worthless since it would make preload too tight. You can't simply back off the pinion nut, you literally have to start almost from the beginning.
My guess is this is what happened. I NEVER break-in a rear I build. The gearsets are already heat treated and mated to one another out of the box. The bearings do not need a break-in either. Like I said in thread, if they're setup right and have oil to them, they're made to last a very long time.
I'm guessing since they know they screwed up the install, that is why they are taking care of everything, even if they do not admit it. Nobody is going to re-do a complete rear gear swap job if the customer supplied parts are defective.
Hope everything works out for you,.
