Z28 Back with a vengeance!
11-29-2009, 06:43 AM
#42
Thanks for the history lesson that most of us already knew ... but really .. who gives a phatt phuch ... the Z28 is going to be the top dog if they ever get around to producing it and the SS is not ... so what ..... this thread has gotten very boring and this Z28/SS subject has been discussed to death many times before .... we don't need no shinkin badges anyway ... 
11-29-2009, 10:44 AM
#43
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Thanks for the history lesson that most of us already knew ... but really .. who gives a phatt phuch ... the Z28 is going to be the top dog if they ever get around to producing it and the SS is not ... so what ..... this thread has gotten very boring and this Z28/SS subject has been discussed to death many times before .... we don't need no shinkin badges anyway ...
Classic Camaros are my passion, I know quite a bit about them from my years of working with them. Its been discussed many times with a lot of wrong info being thrown out there. My intention was to set the record straight and give the less informed a little insight on the history of the two cars.
Im sorry a couple of guys cant handle being told they were wrong.
As for the Z28 being becoming top dog, I could care less. I think the Z28 name plate has evolved to and become more recognizable for performance due to the SS being absent from the line up so many years. I agree that in the "recent" years SS has become degraded to more of a luxury/apearance package.
If I am wrong in any of my statements please feel free to correct me. Unlike some of you I can handle being told when I am wrong. It wouldnt be the first time and im sure it wouldnt be the last.
11-29-2009, 05:32 PM
#44
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OK, I have read this entire thread and have a few things to add. Z28 Vs. SS?
Jeremiah has pointed out that the 1st Gen. SS's were more solid performers than a Z28 form the same model year.
Actually, it wasn't an arguement about SS Vs. Z28 at all. It was an arguement about a SS 396/375 Camaro Vs. a Z28.
What about the SS 350 cars? Are they the "legends" that the SS 396/375 cars are? Yes, they got 12 bolt rears with Posi as an OPTION. Could I have gotten a Z28 with an open diff? Was the mighty L48 on par with the Z28? How 'bout that "fire breathing" L35?
I'm not suggesting that the SS wasn't a performance package, because, it was. BUT, it was a very open ended performance package. It could have been just about anything you wanted it to be, except a Z28.
It's not a stretch to believe that a similarly prepared Camaro with a larger engine and better heads(Z27/L78) is going to out-perform a SCCA rule restricted race car(Z28) in a quarter mile drag race.
Jeremiah, it wasn't fair for you to leave out all the details on the SS model line-up. Some of the guys here may not know the facts and leading them believe that all Camaro SS's in the sixties would outperform a Z28 just ain't cool. It's OBVIOUS by listening to many of them, they are only familiar with the 3rd and 4th gen models.
Having said all that, I'm waiting for the 5th Gen Z28. No more SCCA rules. The Z28, if it wasn't the top dog, it will be.
Jeremiah has pointed out that the 1st Gen. SS's were more solid performers than a Z28 form the same model year.
Actually, it wasn't an arguement about SS Vs. Z28 at all. It was an arguement about a SS 396/375 Camaro Vs. a Z28.
What about the SS 350 cars? Are they the "legends" that the SS 396/375 cars are? Yes, they got 12 bolt rears with Posi as an OPTION. Could I have gotten a Z28 with an open diff? Was the mighty L48 on par with the Z28? How 'bout that "fire breathing" L35?
I'm not suggesting that the SS wasn't a performance package, because, it was. BUT, it was a very open ended performance package. It could have been just about anything you wanted it to be, except a Z28.
It's not a stretch to believe that a similarly prepared Camaro with a larger engine and better heads(Z27/L78) is going to out-perform a SCCA rule restricted race car(Z28) in a quarter mile drag race.
Jeremiah, it wasn't fair for you to leave out all the details on the SS model line-up. Some of the guys here may not know the facts and leading them believe that all Camaro SS's in the sixties would outperform a Z28 just ain't cool. It's OBVIOUS by listening to many of them, they are only familiar with the 3rd and 4th gen models.
Having said all that, I'm waiting for the 5th Gen Z28. No more SCCA rules. The Z28, if it wasn't the top dog, it will be.
11-29-2009, 10:43 PM
#45
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OK, I have read this entire thread and have a few things to add. Z28 Vs. SS?
Jeremiah has pointed out that the 1st Gen. SS's were more solid performers than a Z28 form the same model year.
Actually, it wasn't an arguement about SS Vs. Z28 at all. It was an arguement about a SS 396/375 Camaro Vs. a Z28.
What about the SS 350 cars? Are they the "legends" that the SS 396/375 cars are? Yes, they got 12 bolt rears with Posi as an OPTION. Could I have gotten a Z28 with an open diff? Was the mighty L48 on par with the Z28? How 'bout that "fire breathing" L35?
I'm not suggesting that the SS wasn't a performance package, because, it was. BUT, it was a very open ended performance package. It could have been just about anything you wanted it to be, except a Z28.
It's not a stretch to believe that a similarly prepared Camaro with a larger engine and better heads(Z27/L78) is going to out-perform a SCCA rule restricted race car(Z28) in a quarter mile drag race.
Jeremiah, it wasn't fair for you to leave out all the details on the SS model line-up. Some of the guys here may not know the facts and leading them believe that all Camaro SS's in the sixties would outperform a Z28 just ain't cool. It's OBVIOUS by listening to many of them, they are only familiar with the 3rd and 4th gen models.
Having said all that, I'm waiting for the 5th Gen Z28. No more SCCA rules. The Z28, if it wasn't the top dog, it will be.
Jeremiah has pointed out that the 1st Gen. SS's were more solid performers than a Z28 form the same model year.
Actually, it wasn't an arguement about SS Vs. Z28 at all. It was an arguement about a SS 396/375 Camaro Vs. a Z28.
What about the SS 350 cars? Are they the "legends" that the SS 396/375 cars are? Yes, they got 12 bolt rears with Posi as an OPTION. Could I have gotten a Z28 with an open diff? Was the mighty L48 on par with the Z28? How 'bout that "fire breathing" L35?
I'm not suggesting that the SS wasn't a performance package, because, it was. BUT, it was a very open ended performance package. It could have been just about anything you wanted it to be, except a Z28.
It's not a stretch to believe that a similarly prepared Camaro with a larger engine and better heads(Z27/L78) is going to out-perform a SCCA rule restricted race car(Z28) in a quarter mile drag race.
Jeremiah, it wasn't fair for you to leave out all the details on the SS model line-up. Some of the guys here may not know the facts and leading them believe that all Camaro SS's in the sixties would outperform a Z28 just ain't cool. It's OBVIOUS by listening to many of them, they are only familiar with the 3rd and 4th gen models.
Having said all that, I'm waiting for the 5th Gen Z28. No more SCCA rules. The Z28, if it wasn't the top dog, it will be.
Bottom line is the Z/28 was king of the small block cars until the LT1 was introduced. The LT1 was basicly a stroked version of the 302 with 48 more cubes and used the same heads, cam etc. A 302 Z/28 would out run a 325Hp 396 witch was an economy big block and hold its own with a 350Hp 396. It was an entirely different subject with the 375HP SS though.
when they stated the Z/28 was the top performer they failed to mention which of the five engine packages for the SS they were reffering to.
The 302CI Z/28 was the only performance small block for a first gen IMO. Its the only one that came equiped with forged pistons, sollid lifter cam, aluminum high rise, holley carb etc. The L78/L89 SS were also the only SS cars that came equiped with forged pistons, sollid lifter cam, aluminum high rise, holley carb etc.... its only right to compare the premier package from both the Z/28 and the SS... apples to apples.
Its no different than saying the L35 Chevelle and the LS6 were the same cars right... after all they were both SS models.
Apples to apples.
11-30-2009, 01:51 PM
#46
Cough Cough again....
Not every Z28 was a DZ Cross-Ram engine. So even the Z28s had different performance numbers depending on options.
They are all Camaros guys and gals, and we won't be able to decide how they are badged so take it or leave it....it's really not that big of a deal.
Not every Z28 was a DZ Cross-Ram engine. So even the Z28s had different performance numbers depending on options.
They are all Camaros guys and gals, and we won't be able to decide how they are badged so take it or leave it....it's really not that big of a deal.
11-30-2009, 04:11 PM
#48
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Ok.
This is not accurate, assuming we're talking showroom stock, which I hope we are because there is NO point at all in debating performance capabilities once modded; the sky is the limit for BBC or SBC motors.
396/375hp Camaro SSs (and the Nova SS which used the same solid lifter BBC in '68 & '69) were not "12.80 cars on average" without some level of modification.... be it exhaust, tires, etc. Even if you took a 100% stock (stock weight, stock exhaust, stock gears, stock engine, stock air cleaner and carb....you get the point) '69 Camaro SS396/375hp and did nothing but put modern street tires on it, you still would not have a 12.80 car.
This is not accurate, assuming we're talking showroom stock, which I hope we are because there is NO point at all in debating performance capabilities once modded; the sky is the limit for BBC or SBC motors.
396/375hp Camaro SSs (and the Nova SS which used the same solid lifter BBC in '68 & '69) were not "12.80 cars on average" without some level of modification.... be it exhaust, tires, etc. Even if you took a 100% stock (stock weight, stock exhaust, stock gears, stock engine, stock air cleaner and carb....you get the point) '69 Camaro SS396/375hp and did nothing but put modern street tires on it, you still would not have a 12.80 car.
11-30-2009, 10:53 PM
#49
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Cough Cough again....
Not every Z28 was a DZ Cross-Ram engine. So even the Z28s had different performance numbers depending on options.
They are all Camaros guys and gals, and we won't be able to decide how they are badged so take it or leave it....it's really not that big of a deal.
Not every Z28 was a DZ Cross-Ram engine. So even the Z28s had different performance numbers depending on options.
They are all Camaros guys and gals, and we won't be able to decide how they are badged so take it or leave it....it's really not that big of a deal.
Once again, if you want to start comparing the two after they have been modded the big block will have that much more of an advantage.
11-30-2009, 11:09 PM
#50
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Ok.
This is not accurate, assuming we're talking showroom stock, which I hope we are because there is NO point at all in debating performance capabilities once modded; the sky is the limit for BBC or SBC motors.
396/375hp Camaro SSs (and the Nova SS which used the same solid lifter BBC in '68 & '69) were not "12.80 cars on average" without some level of modification.... be it exhaust, tires, etc. Even if you took a 100% stock (stock weight, stock exhaust, stock gears, stock engine, stock air cleaner and carb....you get the point) '69 Camaro SS396/375hp and did nothing but put modern street tires on it, you still would not have a 12.80 car.
This is not accurate, assuming we're talking showroom stock, which I hope we are because there is NO point at all in debating performance capabilities once modded; the sky is the limit for BBC or SBC motors.
396/375hp Camaro SSs (and the Nova SS which used the same solid lifter BBC in '68 & '69) were not "12.80 cars on average" without some level of modification.... be it exhaust, tires, etc. Even if you took a 100% stock (stock weight, stock exhaust, stock gears, stock engine, stock air cleaner and carb....you get the point) '69 Camaro SS396/375hp and did nothing but put modern street tires on it, you still would not have a 12.80 car.
My original point and the fact I have made over and over is that the premier SS package was dominant over the Z/28 in 1/4 mile performance and all out power.
11-30-2009, 11:27 PM
#51
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I do not dispute what you say, you have no reason to lie nor can I possibily prove you wrong. But I still must assume that this 12.80 pass you witnessed was done in a car with some level of modification (even a bunch of little stuff like carb and ignition tuning, air delivery, gearing and/or exhaust), though the engine could certainly have been internally stock.
