Chris95Z

iTrader: (3)

okay but if your are going to play numbers, how often did gm's engines actually put out what their advertised rating was? Also the 1/4 mile is one thing for speed, I mean the z28 was a track car not a drag racer I hate to say this but here it goes...which one would have been faster from a roll? It can be argued all over the place but as mentioned already, SS is known as top dog with many of chevy's models and when the unknowing buyer talks to the all knowing salesperson, the buyer isn't going to hear 40 years of history, they will hear SS is top, and GM would be dumb to do otherwise (with certain limited exceptions)

OctaneZ28

iTrader: (6)

For Camaro, Z28 has way more history than SS does.

Also back in the day, the 302ci Z28 engine was way under-rated.
I'm not saying it made more power than the big block, but the 290hp rating was quite low.
I honestly can't answer the question about which would be faster from a roll, but the Z28 was probably close to if not faster than the SS in the 1/4 mile.

tkz28

no, i dont agree, the ss badge just means you got the best car of that particular model. whether it happens to be the fastest camaro or the fastest trailblazer who cares i still see camaro ss's on the street and still point them out there still sweet

Piston-Slap

Everyone seems to be baseing that the SS is the top of the line models from the 4th gens only. When there was hardly any power difference there. Just a hood scoop, rear spoiler, and a little better suspension. That dosent sound like the awesome bad *** car everyone is claiming. What about the 20 or so years were there was no SS camaro? The z/28 has always been the top car in the line up. It wasnt untill 1996 when SLP decided to take a Z/28 and make a another car out of it. GM didnt even really have anything to do with building the car. They just gave them away to SLP to build them, got them back and sold them. Given that the Z/28 should be the top line. But the fact that GM is throwing the SS badge on most of there performance cars now (the cobalt SS does perform well for what it was intended to be). I wouldnt be surprised if the new camaro has the SS badge on top.

VaNDaL*SS*

iTrader: (1)

ss not top dog? thats pretty stupid seeing that the new top dog of the corvette line will be the corvette SS...unless some1 has figured out the truth and i just have not read the last 3 pages of posts

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Piston-Slap: I don't really have a stake in this argument one way or the other, but I don't think your reasoning is sound.

It was still the most powerful (even if only slightly), most expensive model. Thus, "top of the line."

...Except for every time there was an SS...

OctaneZ28

iTrader: (6)

Not true, see post #40 where I posted the power numbers of Z28 and SS from 1967-1972 when both models were around.

And Corvette SS is not going to be the name of the car, latest I've heard now is Corvette Stingray.

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Oh, I see now. Whoops! Hah, I didn't pay attention to '71 or '72 because everything sucked so bad then, LOL!

Bet it still cost more, though!

msgZ28

iTrader: (1)

I think Z28 has a lot more history for Camaro and would be better suited to the car, but I might be a little biased. I had thought that Chevy has ruined the SS badge, but after reading a lot more history, I'm not sure anymore. I will have to think that one over.

BTW, the super Corvette had better not be called Stingray.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

You're not a part of that stupid Z07 crowd, are you?

Piston-Slap

What I was saying was the only time the SS was a top of the line was between 1996 and 2002 during the 60's the z/28 was the top of the line. The z/28 out performed the SS in most if not all catergorys.

black_knight

iTrader: (1)

Technically, then, you're mixing your metaphors. The original z/28 was a Trans-Am homologator and bears no resemblance at all to any subsequent z/28. If you're going to rule out the late model SS, then you'll have to rule out all cars after '72.

Not always. That went back and forth over the model years (referring to 68-72 here).

Also, bear in mind that however tricked out the z/28 engine was, it had a 100 cu inch disadvantage. If the owner modified the car at all, that disadvantage would show more heavily than in stock form.

Anyhow, I see only two ways to make sense of this situation:

Either you accept the method used 1996-2002 where the Z28 was the code for the V8 and the SS was an upgraded Z28

Or

You accept the method used 1968-72 where the Z/28 was a homologated racer that didn't directly fit into the model line.

Either way, the Z28 isn't the "top of the line."

The simple truth, though, is that GM will do whatever the hell it wants based on what it thinks will sell cars. They have zero concern with internal consistancy and so this debate is most likely pointless.

Piston-Slap

At leat we can agree on that much.

J E T

iTrader: (5)

The SS Camaro was gone for 20 something years before it came back in '96. Who cares if it doesn't come back for the 5th gen Camaro? SS was meant as RWD performance and GM has sure ruined that name. Chevy has just about an SS option for just about all of its current cars except for the Corvette. Z28 was the top dog for 20+ years after first part of the 2nd gens, so what's it matter if its the top dog for the new 5th gens? I'm just glad they are bringing it back.

WhiteKnightZ28

iTrader: (5)

I'm with Tony on this one...

Wouldnt it be nice if you could order what engine you wanted and what trim level? That way the SS could be the nice cruiser, with leather seats, vert option, auto tranny ect... and the Z/28 would be the "striper" car with more performance basied options and a lower price tag. The you could order ether with a range of engines (except the V6, that should only go in RS models).

Shoulder Shaker

iTrader: (36)

May be a little off topic but I thought I read somewhere that the soltice with a V8 was also going to be called a sting ray. I don't know maybe I was tripping but I thought I read that in a mag.

mike#9

iTrader: (3)

How do you figure? They Z never came with a bigger engine/or one that made more power. The SS had the option for the 396....and with yenko/copo's you could get a 427. The Z28 was never a more powerful car, or a faster car.

RedZoutlaw

The Z28 engine DZ302 was rated at 290 but heard someplace it actually dynoed at 375 or so...again just hearsay.

The yenko/copos were not SSs, they were stripped Zs and had no badging.

Vertigo

iTrader: (1)

Remember how successful the new retro mustang has been. The 2009 Camaro looks much more like the original Camaro so older folks of that time era will better identify with it. I suspect GM may be using the Z28 badge because the Z28 was top dog of that time so it will go over much better with that crowd.??? Just my thoughts.

Z28LS1KID

After reading what everyone has said, I took the time to write up some info for those that don't know the history behind the Z28 and why I feel it should return as the "Top Dog" or best performing Camaro for the 5th gen.
CAUTION LONG READ

"The Z/28"
The Z28 was created for one purpose, to beat the mustang on the race track. The Z28 was more race car than street car. The way it accelerated, cornered, and stopped made it the perfect car to go after the Mustang.

The Mustang had won the Trans Am Championship in 1966 without any real competition. In 1967 the all new Z28 team of Roger Penske and Mark Donahue entered and won 3 races. Mustang took the title again that year, but the Camaro team now knew how to play the game.

During the next 2 seasons as the Trans Am series became increasingly popular, the Z28 blew everyone else away. Chevy's "little" factory race car dominated the series, holding off a huge effort from 2nd place Ford. And full assaults from Dodge, Plymouth, and AMC.

Meanwhile, out on the streets the Z28 had been discovered. Muscle car fans were delighted to find a Camaro that sold for slightly more than an SS 350. Ran the 1/4 mile within 2 tenths of an SS 396. And went around corners like a Corvette.

In an era where Big Blocks were the norm, it was a throwback, a real sophisticated little small block that ran with the best of them.

The center piece of the Z28 option was the all new 302 smallblock. The 302s bore and stroke of 4.00 inches and 3.00 inches mean't this little engine would be a screamer.

1967 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28
302 Cubic Inch Engine
- Bore : 4.00 inches
- Stroke : 3.00 inches
- TRW 11-to-1 pistons
- Forged Rods
- .485-lift solid camshaft
- Holley 780 Carb
- Aluminum Intake Manifold
- 2.02 Heads

The advertised HP was 290 @ 5800rpm. The 302 was actually "rated" at 290hp by Chevrolet. By the time you put headers on, open exhaust and the over the counter camshaft, it would actually make 450-460hp.

All these high performance parts were available for a package price of $358.

Mandatory Z28 Options

- Muncie M-21 4-speed : $184
- Quick-Ratio power steering : $84
- Power Disc Brakes : $100

The Z28s bargain basement price was the deal of the Century. The first Z28s went into production in December 1966. By the end of 1967 they made a total of 602.

Over 200,000 Camaros were sold in 1967. Making it one of Chevys most successful new car introductions ever. Chevy corrected some handling problems that 1967 owners complained about, and made the usual minor trim changes on the 1968 models. In 1968 Chevy replaced the single leaf rear springs w/ much stiffer multi leaf units, and it staggered the rear shocks to help control axle hop on acceleration.

After the strong showing the Penske Camaro had made in '67, the Z28 was starting to get good press. People were starting to talk about this little Camaro in terms once reserved for the Corvette. Chevy decided to make the Z28 a little more "dressy" in '68. "Z/28" identification badges were added, and front and rear spoilers became available this year. The Z's racing stripes were also continued in '68.

Again in '68 the 302 engine was the piece that made it all work. In 1968 the SCCA changed the rules to allow multiple carburetion. In response Chevrolet designed the cross ram two 4 barrel intake manifold. It was more commonly seen on '69 models but it was available in the '68s also.

Now with some seat time in a Z28, Mark Donahue and the Penske team began feeding info back to Chevy engineering on ways to improve the car. Stronger spindles, and a larger front sway bar were developed. And in a move designed to help the racers, Chevy now offered optional 4 wheel disc brakes, which gave the Z28 braking performance equal to the Corvette. According to the SCCA everything on the race car had to be available to the general public. All the camshaft design, exhaust design, all the special parts generated for the Z28 program were as close as your local Chevrolet parts dealer.

From the first green flag of the '68 racing season, the Penske team took no prisoners. They ran away with the series championship winning 10 out of 12 races, and winning 8 of these in a row. GM executives applauded their little factory racer, despite their no racing official policy.

Also in '68, a Z28 won the NHRA Super Stock Championship in a final race between, you guessed it, two Z28s.

From 602 Z28s sold in 1967, to 4,199 sold in 1968, Chevrolet predicted they would sell over 25,000 in 1969. The actual figure would be closer to 20,000 by year end. But this optimism clearly indicates how much this little car had endeared itself to Chevys management in just 2 years. And why not? The Camaro was clearly one of the most popular cars Chevrolet had ever built. And the Z28 was the most exciting Camaro according to people who had driven one.

In its first two years, the Z28 outperformed Chevys most optimistic sales forcasts, wiped the Trans Am tracks clean of Ford products, and cleaned up on the dragstrips, so now what? If your Chevrolet in the late 60s the only answer to that question is to improve it.

In 1969 the car was 2 inches longer and 1 1/2 inches wider. Sharper nose, restyled rear quarters, etc. There were now three Z28 option packages. They ranged from $506 which included the front and rear spoilers, to $758 which added dealer installed headers, to $959 which added the cross ram induction setup to the other options.

A fully optioned out Z28 cost a little over 5k which made it one of the most expensive Camaros you could buy in 1969.

Under the hood very little changed this year, infact there wasnt much left to add except hard core racing parts. There was a new go real fast solid lifter camshaft which provided .493 lift on the intake side and .512 on the exhuast. And a new engine oil cooler. All Z28 engine blocks now had 4 bolt main bearings, and thicker main webs.

In 1970 the Z28 didn't participate in the Trans Am series because Chevrolet no longer backed racing and the Z28 didn't repeat its championship this year. In 1970 at the start of the 2nd gen, the Z28 got the new 350 cubic inch LT-1 rated at 360hp.

As the 70s progessed into the era of unleaded gas, one after another the supercars from the muscle era dropped off the automotive scene. Hp ratings fell to 245hp, and in '72 255hp, but the parts were still good quality parts.

On a few occasions the Z's future looked doubtful, but there have always been enough loyal and dedicated car buyers that insisted America wouldnt be as much fun without the Z28 and thankfully Chevrolet agreed, keeping the Z28 alive through several designs. Each Z28 was a car for its times. And each one was a cut above the ordinary like they always have been. So the Z28 lives today (4th gen) in much the same form as it did in its early years. Still powered by Chevrolets most potent small block engines, corners like a slot car, and could blow the doors off almost anything it comes across.

This just gives the basic idea of the history behind the Z28, and why I feel that it should return as the top model. Does that mean its going to? Only Chevrolet/GM can decide that. But I know that if they stick to what the Z28 is and always has been, than I think its safe to say that we won't be dissappointed either way. Just my .02