Demon Of Dreams

iTrader: (3)

talk about having the pot stirred... jesus christ, I got two pages into it and good lord...


I love F-Bodies of all kinds, but in my heart, I would take a true DZ302 Z28 over ANY other F-Body produced, bar ******* none...

it's probably been beaten to death, but like it was stated, the Z28 was all around track car, strip, street or road course... High revving, high powered, lighter weight in the front (give or take about 400 pounds, depending, possibly more) made for a great handling car yet something that had the power to take out plenty of comers... you have to think about what you're saying when the SS is top dog because of the power... but when you take into consideration weight to power, and just how potent the crossram intake on the 302 could be... it's a whole different ball game and people tend to not think about it

I skimmed the last 4 pages, but to me, the Z28 will always be the top dog of a production/factory racer, and top Camaro, because of it's heritage and what it has proven... bigger is not always better, and back then, there was a lot more of a need to push a car of their own as something more than just a straight line performing vehicle, EVERYONE made straight line or oval track cars... nobody took the time to say "Hey, look, We have this, and that, and so does everyone else... why not put an assload of power into a stripped out car and make it pleasing to drive around a mountain pass or through a 3 mile road course"

Yes, I own a 4thgen SS with T-Tops, and I have creature comforts like A/C, Cruise, reasonable mileage with 400+hp/tq, electric windows, etc...

But when I had my 83 Z28, It was a hard top, manual windows, no A/C, no stereo, L69 with a better cam and heads, long tube emissions free exhaust exiting out the sides, 5 speed and 3.73 posi rearend... it wasn't the greatest thing ever, and it wasn't even the fastest... but after some reasonable suspension modifications, I'll be damned if many things could keep up with it throught the back roads of washington or oregon... it hooked and snuggled the road like a dream, you can talk **** all you want about me owning an early 3rd gen Z28, but it was designed after and more closely resembling what the Z28 really was compared to my SS ... it was quick, it handled, it was stripped out and light weight, stopped well, and thats all I wanted from it.

Sure, my SS may even handle better in some ways, have more power and get me places even faster, but it's also got another 700 pounds of weight without me in it over my 3rd gen Z28, and is nothing like my Z28 ever was ...

To each their own, people have their own top dogs in their hearts, but fact over fiction, the Z28's are king, they bow to nothing.




for what it's worth, however... anybody touting the Z24 cavalier, Z26 Monte Carlo, Z34 Lumina... Sure, there are other Z cars, but the reason they were given those badges were to show homage to the true Z car, the Z28 (this debate also has nothing to do with that OTHER Z car, the 240 Datsun) ... they performed, handled and looked differently than the other models, but were the preferred model over the rest (and the SS models didn't come until AFTER the 96/97 LT1 SS limited production, because people wanted a new appearance package) ... Sure, there was the 80's Monte Carlo's with the SS package, but what would you rather have? The aero coupe with a 4.3 V6, the anemic LG4 305, or the L69 305 (hence, said SS package) ... Then there was the 94-96 Caprice SS (I mean, Impala SS) which are still very highly sought after and beautiful cars, but they paid homage to ONLY the Impala SS of years past, and proved to be nothing more than a pipe dream, a one last HOORAH! before, sadly, the impala, after a 2 year break was then replaced by the FWD shitbox Impala

So by all means, go RIGHT ahead and tout the SS all you want, but when it comes down to it, ANYTHING can be an SS... and damn near everything HAS been an SS... no SS has been modelled after any other SS, but very VERY few models have ever been modelled after the Z production code.



disclaimer:
it's late, I've been drinking, i'm likely rambling, but the Z28 has run the gauntlet over the years... you can't even consider the handful of years the Z28 took a break because of the IROC-Z (1985, the IROC and Z28 were one and the same, and both produced. 86-89 IROC-Z only, and 1990, GM lost the IROC to the DAYTONA, of all cars, and the Z28 came back and has been there ever since) ... Where has the SS been in the F-Body line all those years? 4 or 5 years in the beginning, 6 years in the end, and soon to be again, after a 6 year break... but what is everone really talking about? The Z28 ... everbody knows that the SS is going to be SUPER SPECTACULAR... because of the big power, the high price tag, and the holier than thou "I HAS MOAR MONIES THAN YOU!" attitudes people driving these limited production beasts will have...

I have no elitest SS feelings, I love my SS, but like was mentioned, it's just really a 4thgen Z28 that looks a bit different, and in some opinions, better, and is rated no differently.

~fin~

Demon Of Dreams

iTrader: (3)

well, the Z06 was originally a 1962 model... so technically they're just playing off of that for every model, haha...

LS1 seeker

I love the 1st gens far more than any other generation. I would love to have a 69 SS 396 (L89). But how do you figure that the Z28 is the SS' daddy? The SS and Z28 were both introduced in the first year of production (67). The SS offered a 327, 350, and two 396s; the z28 only offered a 302. Strangely enough though, the Z28 did cost more than every SS except for the 396ci convertible SS. Either way, the larger engine options in the SS gave even the L35 396 a quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Could the boy be that much nicer than daddy? Well 'daddy' did trap higher in the 1/4. Screw them both I say and just get a 427 camaro by dealing with COPO, assuming you're going back in time anytime soon.

LS1 seeker

As for the 'Z' thing, listen to these options on a 67 SS. These are directly from an options brochure
1. Z21, style trim ($40.05)
2. Z22, Rally Sport (RS) package ($105.35)
3. Z23, special interior group ($10.55)
4. Z27, Camaro Super Sport package (1971+) ($313.90)
5. Z28, Special performance package ($358.10)
6. Z87, Custom interior (1968+) ($110.60)

They also had other option codes, starting with including: N,P,T,U,V
Here are some examples:
1. N96, Mag style wheel covers ($73.75)
2. P12, Five 14 x 6 in wheels ($5.30)
3. T60, Heavy duty battery (only T option I could find actually) ($7.40)
4. U69, AM/FM radio ($133.80)/ the AM radio is a U63 code
5. V31, Front bumper Guard ($12.65)/ V32, Rear bumper guard ($9.50)

These codes seem to be unique to the camaro. I don't see them in Chevelle, corvette, Impala, or Nova brochures of the same year. These Z options seemed unique to the camaro, making the race enthusiast option sought after. It makes it sort of a kick in the *** that Gm is now slapping Z codes on every one of their damn vehicles.

There was a Z20 code for the 1970 Monte Carlo though, it was the 360hp 454ci option.

Seeing a trend yet?
I hope so.

LS1 seeker

As for the 302 Z28 debate I just read about. Some have claimed the 302 made MORE power than only 290hp. I've heard a claim of 340-350hp, that is also the output they claimed in the racing series with the EXACT SAME ENGINE. The 302 also trapped higher than the 396 and could supposedly run quicker ETs. Also, the 302 cost much more than the 396 to produce and was unique to the Z28 camaro. The engine was built specifically for the Trans Am race series, it is a purpose built motor. The 327, 350, and 396s were just taken off of other Chevrolets.

LT1-DAN

This thread is like a bad case of diaarea.

67SS&99SS

iTrader: (7)

It doesn't really matter what car gets the higher hp engine. If the cars paralled what GM did from the beginning with the first gen cars, I think it would be great. A high winding autocross type car in the Z28 and an all out brute power in the SS would be cool.
302s can be built to be very powerful engines, and I have a lot of respect for them. Rick's first generation Camaro is about 45 minutes from my house, so I get to check out all of the cool first gen stuff pretty often. About 2 years ago, I talked to Rick about one of his cars, a silver 69 Z. It had a very rare smokey yunick "hemi head" 302 in it. Here is the same type engine in a blue 68 Z.




He said they had really never pushed the car to its limits due to the fact that the engine components are so rare, but he did say it was quite a screamer. The history behind the 67-69 Zs is very cool, and I would encourage everyone in this thread to try to read up about the car's success in the SCCA Trans Am series in 68-69, and the cool options you could get on the cars, like the cross rams, JL-8 4 wheel disc brakes, factory headers (dealer installed), chambered exhaust, special suspension, and all of the other over the counter parts you could get at your local chevrolet dealership. One of my dad's friends got a 69 Z for a graduation present, and he said that from a roll, it would run with a L-78 375 hp 396.
This is a cool video that will give some other posters in this thread an idea of what the 302's capabilities really are. From what I have read on the net, this was a stock 302 built by nelson racing engines with the solid flat tappet 30-30 cam, and other gm parts. I would assume that balancing/blue printing was taken to an extreme, but it made 530 hp at 8500. http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/v...ighrevhigh.wmv

alc80

iTrader: (3)

ss was top of the line. thats why any car optioned with the ss package(1st gen) lost its respective badging and got ss badges.

NastySSoo

I disagree that the Z28 was the "Daddy" to the SS. My 97 and 00 Camaros were Z28s, with the SS option. It started as a Z28 and was upgraded to an SS. These were certainly real camaro weren't they? End of story!!!

Hydramatic

This is what I'm talking about. Guys who know nothing but the 4th gen need to not talk.

But then again...everyone is entitled to their own opinion...whether it's correct is another story...

alc80

iTrader: (3)

what was wrong with his statement? the ss [ackage was an add on to the z/28.

usafcrewchief01

iTrader: (5)

ok enough bitching, you own what you own regardless of the badges worn on the side, they both rock and each one has it's advantages, and disadvantages. Get over it and because well we have better things to do than bitch amongst each other....

oneBADDz

iTrader: (26)

That's exactly the point we are trying to make and you aren't listening. BEFORE the 4th gen the SS wasnt not a Z28 that was upgraded.

The point of all of this wasn't necessarily to argue which one was better, although that's what it turned into. The point of this was to open the eyes of guys like you who only know 4th gens but still think they know something about the history of the f-body. There is alot more to it than 4th gen boys know, and you should all learn the history. The Z28 and SS were two different entities altogether. RS was an additional package to other modles, not a model of it's own

lphurley88

Ok so ive been seeing all this talk about how the SS is better than the Z28. And first i just wanna say that any chevy can be an SS but only a camaro can be a Z28. And second who cares if Z28 owners are putting SS stuff on a Z28 all that stuff used to come on the Z28 when the ss didn't even exist i personally have 1999 Z28 and i am trying to put that stuff on my car. So yes the SS is a little faster but the Z28 will always be the true Camaro.

slt200mph

iTrader: (42)

Who ever told that a ss was faster than a Z28 was fibbing to ya..

JAXFLSS

Hard for me to debate anything when everything has already been covered. But whatever your opinion is, when the new camaros start rolling out next year, the z28 will be the daddy. Just too bad we have to wait so long for the z28 to come out compared to the base and ss camaro.

Jobu

And you know this how? Do you know this a fact or is this just what you hope will happen. From what I've seen, GM hasn't released any information pertaining to option packages.

JAXFLSS

Oh it's definately not any facts, but just from what I have read.

Slated to bow in the first quarter of 2009 as an early 2010 model, it's expected that the Camaro will be offered in three trim levels — LS, LT and SS. The base LS may be powered by Chevy's 3.5-liter pushrod V-6 making about 220 bhp. The LT models would use the overhead-cam direct-injected 3.6-liter V-6 developing upward of 300 bhp, while the SS will be powered by a 6.2-liter LS3 V-8 (similar to that found in the Corvette) tuned to produce around 400–405 bhp. A year after launch, Chevy will introduce a convertible version and after that a high-performance Z28 model with a super-charged 6.2-liter sibling to the Corvette ZR1's LS9 motor known as the LSA. That engine would make somewhere in the neighborhood of 480–500 bhp and is similar to the engine used in the upcoming Cadillac CTS-V.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=6814

oneBADDz

iTrader: (26)

Did you seriously just re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-repost that? Not only is it BS, it's stale, old BS

JAXFLSS

Yeah i reposted it for him since he asked where i saw it. Maybe he didn't know. Like I said, definately not true. So your point is?