LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

I searched this topic. and While I understand this is ls1tech (most likely get biased answer) ill take everything I get to help me decide my final decision. I am also posting this in supraforums to get both sides etc.


This is not a VS thread. please read entirely.

for my next project is going to involved an engine swap. After my 260z v8 turbo swap I feel confident in swapping which ever engine I decide to go with.

The chassis is an e46 bmw. all 3 engine have been done and so i know it fits.



All work will be done by me including fabrication of parts. so total cost for budget is just for parts.

heres the details.


USE: 99% street car. mixed highway and city driving. once in a while it will be used for canyon runs, auto x and drag. So just looking for overall performer.

Power goal: Ideally I want atleast 600whp and this is where it gets complicated. because does a wider powerband makes a faster car even though it makes less power? for what I intend to use it for which would be a better option?

for my budget heres what I can do to the engine.

LS1
-stock ls1 with h/c/i = 450whp give or take?
should I decide for F/I = it may be over my budget.
pro: displacement. Around town it may just give me everything I want at 450whp. but at highway / off a roll It may feel slow (im used to 500-550whp)

cons: t56 = pricey. should mine go out thats an expensive trans to replace.
to go over 550whp reliably I would need to rebuild with stronger internals = more money than what I have.
passing 450whp is also where it gets real expensive as it involves more cubes or turbo/sc
I would have to fabricate custom long tubes headers...which is very time consuming.

1jz / 2jz still undecided.
both should support my powergoal. if I can get a 2jz for the same price or close to what I can get a 1jz then ill be going with 2jz.

Ive read some people being able to crank out 5-600whp just with safc and fcd? and supporting mods. and cost wise since I can fab my own exhaust and ic pipes. and exhaust manifold if needed, it would cost the same to mod an ls1 to 450whp.

plans are 67mm turbo or hx40 holset with meth injection and tuned with safc 2. which im really familiar with. but its been a long time so let me know if theres cheaper way to tune out there now that yield similar result.

pro: engine will be good for whatever I want. which for me is max 700whp if at that(i doubt ill pass 600whp just because I think 500-550whp is really a limit on street use IMO)
if 600 can indded be tuned with just an safc and not a expensive standalone then this takes the cake for simplicity.
the use of r154 = cheap and sturdy transmission.

cons: I would have to use a pretty hard clutch (act extreme) to handle the trq. (with ls1 I can get away with ls7 stock clutch=stock feel with 500-550trq capacity)
could very well be laggy(although hx40 with twin scroll set up could cut down lag a bit.)



as you can see according to my calculation. with my budget I can swap in a

ls1 (with ls6 head/intake and cam) with t56
that makes around 450whp


or

swap a 1jz (most likely 2jz) with single turbo tuned with safc 2
that makes 550-600whp

both set up seems like it would be reliable.

however ls1 will be lighter since its aluminum block and it wont have turbo stuff.
1j/2j will make more power and since its turbo I can increase or decrease power just by playing with boost.


head to head. ls1 with 450whp and 2j with 550whp

from the dig.
which is faster?

how about from a roll?


The difference in power will be around 100-150whp but the ls1 will make the power sooner and broader powerband. if the power potential for the money is the same ls1 it is. but im undecided if 100-150whp is worth that lag before power and that extra weight.


any opinions are welcome.

please dont turn this thread into a VS as both engine are great in their own way I just want some opinions on what you think would work better for my application.

thank you

Burken01

iTrader: (88)

Search turbo 5.3 engines on this site,

600hp will be a cake walk with it and its affordable..

LSM3

iTrader: (1)

I currently have a turbo ls1/t56 in a E30 M3 and I have had a 2jz turbo/r154 tranny in a 240z. The lS/turbo will make easier/cheaper HP....period. At every power level th LS will be cheaper. LS will have more torque AND spool the same turbo faster.

The T56 might be pricey but it is cheap to rebuild/strengthen and will live longer at higher torque levels compared to the r154.

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

In a lighter chassis I would think a t-56 stock would have no problem what so ever at 600hp if it is in decent shape. If your confident in be able to do any swap. I would assume you have some mechanical talent/skill. If this is the case a LS/LQ turbo would be the way to go. Strong powerband and peak power. It can also be done fairly cheap if your ok with building it and doing the work yourself and piecing the parts together. Plus an LS motor is easy to work on. OHV > OHC in terms of simplicity.

StealthWeaponLS1

I would say do a 5.3L turbo build. With the 5.3L, you can find a decent 5.3L for dirt cheap and that might free up some more money through out your build for more go fast parts. Just like everyone else saying and will say to you.....5.3L turbo is just a logical and cheapest choice.

2muchboostNY

iTrader: (8)

Speaking from experience I think the both are a good option but your prices are a bit skewed. Finding an R154 today is very expensive compared to what they used to go for unless you get lucky. I bought my R154 for $300 approx 3 years ago. I went to sell mine this year and everyone was asking $700+ even in shitty beat up conditions. The R154 is also a hit or miss. Some have had good success on a completely stock unit up till about 700rwhp like my buddy did but most blow way before that unless you beef them up. All in all I had my R154 rebuilt with Marlin Crawler internals which added about $800 between parts and labor...again prices as of a year or more ago, im sure prices have gone up. Forget the V160 which is the way to go because the price of a good V160 alone goes for $3500 on average and thats not usually including all parts you need.

Now the cost of the 2jz or 1jz. The fan boys are driving the prices up fast! My buddies picked up there entire 2j with R154 for $2k 3 years ago. Highly doubt you will find that price now. Look at the Aluminum 5.3's which can be had for a reasonable price and handle boost very well, as do the iron blocks.

Overall my 5.3 build so far is approximately 1/3 of the price of my 2J build...probably even cheaper and I havent been cheap about buying parts just patient. Most of the 2J parts overall are more expensive and at times overprice. If you decide to go 2J or 1J look at SupraForums site for more information. Overall my V8 build has been more simple, cheaper, and parts are more readily available in general.

jiggler

not sure if the stock e46 engine is an iron block or not, that could throw off the weight balance (with swapping the new engine. Though the t56 is more expensive then the r154, if you want to go more power (which most likely will happen) you're going to have to go with the v160 which is way more expensive than the t56. 600whp is def pushing the limit of the r154 so.... either one i think you will be fine with

Blackbob

iTrader: (1)

There is a member on here named "vazfx16" who just did this in his wagon. You may want to check out his build because he may have started where you are too.

Exidous

iTrader: (11)

The 5.3L L33 alum block and turbo is a GREAT budget option. Low weight. Less than a 2JZ and almost certainly cheaper at 600+whp. Great mileage too. I love the 2JZ motor but the 5.3L's are just beast when boosted. If you can fab the exhaust and cold side yourself I could easily see the swap coming in at or under the 2JZ with more power potential and better MPG.

The major weak spot for power handling is the output spline. The rest of the upgrades are for overall drivability and ability to handle high speed shifting better. In my RX-7 at 430+whp the rear is way more likely to go than the trans. You can do a t56 magnum for under 3k straight up and it's a BADASS trans that you won't have issues with.

I am planning on going boost this year and I can honestly say I'd be happy with a 5.3 over my LS1. (for boost)

I am also speaking from a 600whp on both motors. A 5.3 and up can spool a turbo properly size to almost instant boost at the 600whp level. Now-a-days the "there is no replacement for displacement" is more true than ever. Low effort high MPG v8's with a turbo can rock 30MPG plus with over 600-700HP under boost in a light good aero car. It's pretty amazing. It's all that weight the cars have that kills their MPG. There are a bunch of turbo v8 FC rx7 with crazy power and MPG.

For auto X you will want to turn the boost down and run all motor. The v8 will be plenty. For drag again the v8 has a more manageable power curve even boosted. Parts are cheap and abundant.

LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

Thank you all for the response.

Yea the jz seems to be a more expensive option right now.
Just did a full price check and it looks like it's going to be harder to reach my goal of 600whp on the jz for my budget.


I was a supra guy first and foremost so I always have a soft spot for their engine.

Ls1 or ls 4.8/5.3 is a much cheaper options. My only concern is fitment issues with the turbo.
All the e46 build I've seen are n/a... I mean I'm only building it once so I don't mind if it takes extra time to fab. but not sure if I'll have the room that I need.

This is the first I've heard of aluminum 5.3 I hadn't considered it because of iron block and turbo = excessive weight up front.

Is capable of 600whp on full stock engine like the iron block?


The pricing difference between the ls1 vs 5.3 isn't much different. Looks like I can get a full ls1 with t56 70k(so they say) for 2.2k

Or get 5.3 $500 and t56 (1200 is lowest I found)

That's 1700 vs 2200.
That's $500 for extra cubes. Worth it or not?

Up side of 5.3 (iron is what I've found locally) is if it blows. Well it's only 500 to get another. Ls1 is well pricey on its own.
And correct me if I'm wrong but people feel 500-550whp is the limit of stock internals.

On a side note. I have one major factor I forgot. I'm running 255/35/18. I have run drag radials on my dd before so I don't mind running DR again. But that's the max tire size I'm able to fit without flare.
What do you guys think the limit of DR in those tire size. Power wise.

don't want to be loosing traction everything I go wot on the freeway.

Benjamin Russick

iTrader: (1)

The 255 tires make your goal of 600rwhp kind of arbitrary. If you are on a budget, the 5.3 is easily the winner. Aluminum 5.3s are out there, but you will have to balance the price difference versus saving the extra 75ish lbs.

Honestly? I would do a N/A LSx platform and aim for 450-475rwhp. Packaging, reliability and performance at a reasonable price.

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

A 2jz is 594lbs a iron 5.3 is 518lbs, don't let the word iron automatically conjurer images of 800lb big block Chevy motors with iron heads and stuff.