Possible ODO Fraud on 02 Z28?
08-07-2014, 03:54 PM
#1
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Possible ODO Fraud on 02 Z28? Hello,
It seems as though I have a new question each day on here. Thanks for all of the support and information, all of you are amazing.
So, I purchased my 2002 Z28 at the beginning of June this year. It was sold to me with 45,218 miles on it. I just realized all of the service receipts were left in the glove box.
I found something interesting on two of them. One stated that the car was in the shop on April 2011 w/ 45,809 mi on it. The next receipt for May 2011 (the guy had to go in and get some tranny work done for a valve leaking) said it had 40,206 on it. So, the car had 5,603 less miles on it a month later at the same exact shop this guy had been going to since 2002 when he bought the car new.
The person who sold it to me claimed to be the man's son. He said his father had passed away in 2013 at the age of 87 y.o. I got the car for $6,000, because he claimed he had to get rid of it, because his wife wanted it out of the garage for her new Mini Cooper, which he showed me, and he also had a newer Z06, so he had money and a nice place, so I didn't think he NEEDED the money that bad that he would tamper w/ the ODO... BUT, now these receipts are scaring me.
Is it common for a shop to mess up the miles on a car on accident? I sure hope so. On the other hand, would he really roll back the ODO on a Z28 he could have gotten $6K for w/ 100,000 mi on it any ways? The car looked just fine for 45,000mi and doesn't show any signs of wear and tear like a car with 100K+ would. It's just that the deal was so good, and now I see these receipts, had all of these plans on what I wanted to do with the car, and now my dreams feel kind of shattered for this car.
Is there anyone that can tell if a digital odometer has been screwed with?
Thanks for your help, everyone!
It seems as though I have a new question each day on here. Thanks for all of the support and information, all of you are amazing.
So, I purchased my 2002 Z28 at the beginning of June this year. It was sold to me with 45,218 miles on it. I just realized all of the service receipts were left in the glove box.
I found something interesting on two of them. One stated that the car was in the shop on April 2011 w/ 45,809 mi on it. The next receipt for May 2011 (the guy had to go in and get some tranny work done for a valve leaking) said it had 40,206 on it. So, the car had 5,603 less miles on it a month later at the same exact shop this guy had been going to since 2002 when he bought the car new.
The person who sold it to me claimed to be the man's son. He said his father had passed away in 2013 at the age of 87 y.o. I got the car for $6,000, because he claimed he had to get rid of it, because his wife wanted it out of the garage for her new Mini Cooper, which he showed me, and he also had a newer Z06, so he had money and a nice place, so I didn't think he NEEDED the money that bad that he would tamper w/ the ODO... BUT, now these receipts are scaring me.
Is it common for a shop to mess up the miles on a car on accident? I sure hope so. On the other hand, would he really roll back the ODO on a Z28 he could have gotten $6K for w/ 100,000 mi on it any ways? The car looked just fine for 45,000mi and doesn't show any signs of wear and tear like a car with 100K+ would. It's just that the deal was so good, and now I see these receipts, had all of these plans on what I wanted to do with the car, and now my dreams feel kind of shattered for this car.
Is there anyone that can tell if a digital odometer has been screwed with?
Thanks for your help, everyone!
08-07-2014, 04:09 PM
#2
TECH Enthusiast
Seems unlikely to me they would go through the trouble and risk of rolling the miles back for a measly 5,603 miles. It would make more sense if it were rolled back from 100K to 45K. But a well kept 45K mile car looks far different than a 100K mile car. My bet is on a transposition error where someone mistook a 6 for a 0....which is quite easy when people have lousy penmanship or vision (ie miles were really 46,206 and were recorded as 40,206). There should be other records out there for the car such as oil change visits, registrations, 1-2 yr emissions, etc. If the car steadily marched up the mileage from 2002 to 2013 (to 45K miles), it's not likely that all of a sudden it was rolled back.
Fwiw the regulators and law enforcement people aren't all that concerned with odometer fraud on cars >10 yrs old. At that point in time they just figure they are all old cars and not worth much. I had a 69 GTX I purchased that I later proved through DMV records in 2 different states that it was rolled back from 80K miles to 16K miles. I couldn't find a single person in my state willing to help (AG, DMV, consumer protection, police, etc.). Does the last owner have any maintenance documents for the last few years that they owned it? There should be plenty of those around somewhere unless they cleaned house just as they sold the car. And that's something I would have asked to see before buying the car. Odds are your car is fine with a paper work glitch of some sort. But by all means dig a little deeper to get some peace of mind....I would. If I found this discrepancy before buying the car I'd and the car was fine otherwise, I'd have plowed forward and bought it too chalking it up to a "paper work" error. Google "odometer fraud" or "roll back" and see what you find. There is probably lots of information on what is needed to make it happen.
http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Odometer-Fraud
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8110128AA8BNmm
A trained instrument tech that repairs these things can swap odometers chips on the pcb. Or the entire instrument cluster could be swapped out if it was damaged in some way (water, fire, theft, etc.). But who would be dumb enough to swap chips risk screwing up the car for a $500 gain in "mileage." With so many car records out there these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere. If the car has been going to that same shop since 2002 your task should be fairly simple. Give them a call or head down in person. They should have something on file to resolve this. No roll back crook would be dump enough to leave mileage receipts in the glove box after performing their work. In my mind the odds of this being a nefarious roll back of 5,603 miles is a 1,000-1 shot. I'd bet $10 on it to earn $10,000.
Fwiw the regulators and law enforcement people aren't all that concerned with odometer fraud on cars >10 yrs old. At that point in time they just figure they are all old cars and not worth much. I had a 69 GTX I purchased that I later proved through DMV records in 2 different states that it was rolled back from 80K miles to 16K miles. I couldn't find a single person in my state willing to help (AG, DMV, consumer protection, police, etc.). Does the last owner have any maintenance documents for the last few years that they owned it? There should be plenty of those around somewhere unless they cleaned house just as they sold the car. And that's something I would have asked to see before buying the car. Odds are your car is fine with a paper work glitch of some sort. But by all means dig a little deeper to get some peace of mind....I would. If I found this discrepancy before buying the car I'd and the car was fine otherwise, I'd have plowed forward and bought it too chalking it up to a "paper work" error. Google "odometer fraud" or "roll back" and see what you find. There is probably lots of information on what is needed to make it happen.
http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Odometer-Fraud
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8110128AA8BNmm
A trained instrument tech that repairs these things can swap odometers chips on the pcb. Or the entire instrument cluster could be swapped out if it was damaged in some way (water, fire, theft, etc.). But who would be dumb enough to swap chips risk screwing up the car for a $500 gain in "mileage." With so many car records out there these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere. If the car has been going to that same shop since 2002 your task should be fairly simple. Give them a call or head down in person. They should have something on file to resolve this. No roll back crook would be dump enough to leave mileage receipts in the glove box after performing their work. In my mind the odds of this being a nefarious roll back of 5,603 miles is a 1,000-1 shot. I'd bet $10 on it to earn $10,000.
Last edited by Firebrian; 08-07-2014 at 04:34 PM.
08-07-2014, 04:26 PM
#3
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,023
Likes: 0
Received 1,472 Likes
on
1,060 Posts
Seems unlikely to me they would go through the trouble and risk of rolling the miles back for a measly 5,603 miles. It would make more sense if it were rolled back from 100K to 45K. But a well kept 45K mile car looks far different than a 100K mile car. My bet is on a transposition error where someone mistook a 6 for a 0....which is quite easy when people have lousy penmanship or vision (ie miles were really 46,206 and were recorded as 40,206). There should be other records out there for the car such as oil change visits, registrations, 1-2 yr emissions, etc. If the car steadily marched up the mileage from 2002 to 2013 (to 45K miles), it's not likely that all of a sudden it was rolled back.
With so many car records these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere.
With so many car records these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere.
FWIW, I bought a new '00 WS6 in July of 2000, and it was due for it's first IL emissions test in 2004. This was a weekend only car, so it had only 8300 miles in 2004, but the emissions test center inspector made a mistake and entered it into the system as 83,000 miles.
I didn't notice this until later, and the car was sold shortly after that. So I imagine the Carfax would still show an emissions test at 83,000 miles in '04, and then several records after that with MUCH lower mileage. Without knowing the story this could look like fraud, but as the original owner and the person who later caught the mistake that the emissions center made, I can assure you that mistakes can and do happen just as in my case.Overall, for the price you paid I wouldn't worry either way, but I agree with the above - nothing about that situation sounds like odometer fraud to me.
08-07-2014, 04:31 PM
#4
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems unlikely to me they would go through the trouble and risk of rolling the miles back for a measly 5,603 miles. It would make more sense if it were rolled back from 100K to 45K. But a well kept 45K mile car looks far different than a 100K mile car. My bet is on a transposition error where someone mistook a 6 for a 0....which is quite easy when people have lousy penmanship or vision (ie miles were really 46,206 and were recorded as 40,206). There should be other records out there for the car such as oil change visits, registrations, 1-2 yr emissions, etc. If the car steadily marched up the mileage from 2002 to 2013 (to 45K miles), it's not likely that all of a sudden it was rolled back.
Fwiw the regulators and law enforcement people aren't all that concerned with odometer fraud on cars >10 yrs old. At that point in time they just figure they are all old cars and not worth much. I had a 69 GTX I purchased that I later proved through DMV records in 2 different states that it was rolled back from 80K miles to 16K miles. I couldn't find a single person in my state willing to help (AG, DMV, consumer protection, police, etc.). Does the last owner have any maintenance documents for the last few years that they owned it? There should be plenty of those around somewhere unless they cleaned house just as they sold the car. And that's something I would have asked to see before buying the car. Odds are your car is fine with a paper work glitch of some sort. But by all means dig a little deeper to get some peace of mind....I would. If I found this discrepancy before buying the car I'd and the car was fine otherwise, I'd have plowed forward and bought it too chalking it up to a "paper work" error.
Can't imagine it's that hard to swap odometers with another car if one is so inclined to do so. There are probably factory seals to that would be broken if someone was in there. But I'm just guessing. Who'd be dumb enough to swap instrument panels and risk screwing up the car for a $500 gain in "mileage." With so many car records out there these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere. If the car has been going to that same shop since 2002 your task should be fairly simple. Give them a call or head down in person. They should have something on file to resolve this. No roll back crook would be dump enough to leave mileage receipts in the glove box after performing their work. In my mind the odds of this being a nefarious roll back of 5,603 miles is a 1,000-1 shot. I'd bet $10 on it to earn $10,000.
Fwiw the regulators and law enforcement people aren't all that concerned with odometer fraud on cars >10 yrs old. At that point in time they just figure they are all old cars and not worth much. I had a 69 GTX I purchased that I later proved through DMV records in 2 different states that it was rolled back from 80K miles to 16K miles. I couldn't find a single person in my state willing to help (AG, DMV, consumer protection, police, etc.). Does the last owner have any maintenance documents for the last few years that they owned it? There should be plenty of those around somewhere unless they cleaned house just as they sold the car. And that's something I would have asked to see before buying the car. Odds are your car is fine with a paper work glitch of some sort. But by all means dig a little deeper to get some peace of mind....I would. If I found this discrepancy before buying the car I'd and the car was fine otherwise, I'd have plowed forward and bought it too chalking it up to a "paper work" error.
Can't imagine it's that hard to swap odometers with another car if one is so inclined to do so. There are probably factory seals to that would be broken if someone was in there. But I'm just guessing. Who'd be dumb enough to swap instrument panels and risk screwing up the car for a $500 gain in "mileage." With so many car records out there these days (Car Fax, Auto Check, etc.) being digitized over the past 15 years, it's pretty hard to slip a roll back in there w/o red flagging against other documents. Transposition errors do happen from time to time. I've seen the mileage on a Car Fax go backwards. Someone had to make a mistake somewhere. If the car has been going to that same shop since 2002 your task should be fairly simple. Give them a call or head down in person. They should have something on file to resolve this. No roll back crook would be dump enough to leave mileage receipts in the glove box after performing their work. In my mind the odds of this being a nefarious roll back of 5,603 miles is a 1,000-1 shot. I'd bet $10 on it to earn $10,000.
08-07-2014, 04:38 PM
#5
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree.
FWIW, I bought a new '00 WS6 in July of 2000, and it was due for it's first IL emissions test in 2004. This was a weekend only car, so it had only 8300 miles in 2004, but the emissions test center inspector made a mistake and entered it into the system as 83,000 miles. I didn't notice this until later, and the car was sold shortly after that. So I imagine the Carfax would still show an emissions test at 83,000 miles in '04, and then several records after that with MUCH lower mileage. Without knowing the story this could look like fraud, but as the original owner and the person who later caught the mistake that the emissions center made, I can assure you that mistakes can and do happen just as in my case.
Overall, for the price you paid I wouldn't worry either way, but I agree with the above - nothing about that situation sounds like odometer fraud to me.
FWIW, I bought a new '00 WS6 in July of 2000, and it was due for it's first IL emissions test in 2004. This was a weekend only car, so it had only 8300 miles in 2004, but the emissions test center inspector made a mistake and entered it into the system as 83,000 miles.
I didn't notice this until later, and the car was sold shortly after that. So I imagine the Carfax would still show an emissions test at 83,000 miles in '04, and then several records after that with MUCH lower mileage. Without knowing the story this could look like fraud, but as the original owner and the person who later caught the mistake that the emissions center made, I can assure you that mistakes can and do happen just as in my case.Overall, for the price you paid I wouldn't worry either way, but I agree with the above - nothing about that situation sounds like odometer fraud to me.
08-07-2014, 04:42 PM
#6
TECH Enthusiast
This guy reset the odometer of a VW Passat from 212K to 37K miles in 3 minutes. But I still don't think this is what happened here. But do your dilligence with maintenance history records to ensure mileage wasn't altered at some point.
08-07-2014, 04:44 PM
#7
Thanks for the reassurance (I need all I can get, as I tend to get VERY worked up over things like this). I was ready to go to court! I just needed to cool down a little and really think it through in my head if this is what this guy had done. I believe it must've been an honest mistake. Also, can a performance shop or any shop at all tell if a digital ODO has been tampered with? Is there any other storage device in the computer/car that is separate from the ODO and keeps track of miles? I swear they should have better systems to check on this BS. They should have like some kind of markings that show within the engine of some sort only after a certain amount of miles have been reached (I'm getting off track here and probably way too complex, but you'd think they would have it figured out by now to stop people from doing this.. But, criminals always figure out ways around things).
Trending Topics
08-07-2014, 04:48 PM
#8
TECH Enthusiast
.......I have ALL of the receipts for oil changes from that shop, but unfortunately, that shop is out of business and 400mi from where I live. The receipts indicate (from 2002) a steady increase in mileage, but in April of 2011 it showed it had 45,809 and the next month (May 2011) showed 40,206. I'm hoping it was just an error on the mechanics part when they had the car in the shop in April 2011 when they wrote down 45,809 miles. Also, when the title was transferred from the father (he has passed away) to the son (the guy I bought it from) it said it did not require ODO recording on the title since it was 10yrs+ old, but they wrote down 303 mi for the ODO reading. Can they jot down any number for the ODO once it's 10 yrs+? And why the hell wouldn't they have just wrote down what the actual mileage was on it if the miles were low in the first place for a car from 2002?
It makes no sense about putting in "303" rather than the correct mileage. That is strange. And I have a hard time that someone would even believe that....and honestly write in "303" rather than the real mileage. Bizzarro world! The DMV might assess the sales tax due based on the car's condition and mileage. I sure as heck wouldn't want to pay sales tax for 303 orig miles vs. a 45K mile car. Though I think my state just assigns sales tax based on your typical NADA dealer trade-in value for an "average" used car of that year. But all the car price guides have adjustments for mileage...especially 45K miles difference. I would not let someone write in "303." That could affect the deal.
On my '69 GTX the orig owner left the miles blank on his original IL title when he sold the car. I would bet the new owner suggested that. After all, they ran a large auto parts salvage business and collected vintage classic cars. That new owner wrote in 16K rather than 80K miles....even had his wife notarize/emboss the document...lol. And when the state of MO re-issued the title he had a perfectly legit and type written state title showing 16K orig miles.
Last edited by Firebrian; 08-07-2014 at 05:22 PM.
08-07-2014, 04:59 PM
#9
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This guy reset the odometer of a VW Passat from 212K to 37K miles in 3 minutes. But I still don't think this is what happened here. But do your dilligence with maintenance history records to ensure mileage wasn't altered at some point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11MtfMqg4ko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11MtfMqg4ko
08-07-2014, 05:01 PM
#11
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08-07-2014, 05:05 PM
#12
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess in 3 years a lot of miles could have been put on that car if someone wanted to. If the old man was still driving it then you wouldn't think there would have been many miles added by an 87 yr old....assuming he could still handle a 6 speed. If the son was joy riding it 10K miles a year, then that's different. I've never heard the story of not needing the mileage on a >10 yr old car. If not, then why wouldn't car dealerships write in N/A on al their pre-2005 trade-in? Imagine the mess this would cause for Vette dealers? My Camaro SS was >10 yrs old when I registered it in 2012 and I needed the mileage put in there.
It makes no sense about putting in "303" rather than the correct mileage. That is strange. And I have a hard time that someone would even believe that....and honestly write in "303" rather than the real mileage. Bizzarro world! The DMV might assess the sales tax due based on the car's condition and mileage. I sure as heck wouldn't want to pay sales tax for 303 orig miles vs. a 45K mile car. Though I think my state just assigns sales tax based on your typical NADA dealer trade-in value for an "average" used car of that year.
On my '69 GTX the orig owner left the miles blank on his original IL title when he sold the car. I would bet the new owner suggested that. After all, they ran a large auto parts salvage business and collected vintage classic cars. That new owner wrote in 16K rather than 80K miles....even had his wife notarize/emboss the document...lol. And when the state of MO re-issued the title he had a perfectly legit and type written state title showing 16K orig miles.
It makes no sense about putting in "303" rather than the correct mileage. That is strange. And I have a hard time that someone would even believe that....and honestly write in "303" rather than the real mileage. Bizzarro world! The DMV might assess the sales tax due based on the car's condition and mileage. I sure as heck wouldn't want to pay sales tax for 303 orig miles vs. a 45K mile car. Though I think my state just assigns sales tax based on your typical NADA dealer trade-in value for an "average" used car of that year.
On my '69 GTX the orig owner left the miles blank on his original IL title when he sold the car. I would bet the new owner suggested that. After all, they ran a large auto parts salvage business and collected vintage classic cars. That new owner wrote in 16K rather than 80K miles....even had his wife notarize/emboss the document...lol. And when the state of MO re-issued the title he had a perfectly legit and type written state title showing 16K orig miles.
08-07-2014, 05:10 PM
#13
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firebrian - And as far as the son driving it -- He has a Z06 he drives, so idk if he would even want to drive the Camaro... But I have no records of the car after 2011.. Maybe the old man got sick that year and the car wasn't touched any more? I have all records from 2002-2011.. mid 2011-mid 2014... nothing
08-07-2014, 05:12 PM
#14
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could be right, and if they happened to ask the guy (who was 85ish at the time) there is a good possibility a guy closer to his 90's may mistakenly give the wrong information unintentionally.
08-07-2014, 05:19 PM
#15
TECH Enthusiast
Firebrian - And as far as the son driving it -- He has a Z06 he drives, so idk if he would even want to drive the Camaro... But I have no records of the car after 2011.. Maybe the old man got sick that year and the car wasn't touched any more? I have all records from 2002-2011.. mid 2011-mid 2014... nothing
08-07-2014, 05:32 PM
#16
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably so. Though if I owned a nice Z06 I wouldn't be driving it in the rain, snow, or ultra-cold weather of WI. During those months I would try to drive my dad's camaro as additional miles on that wouldn't mean as much. Though I'd bet a WI winter would make a mess of the car that would be hard to hide. The son should have had a good explanation of what the car was doing from 2011-2014.
08-07-2014, 10:32 PM
#17
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,023
Likes: 0
Received 1,472 Likes
on
1,060 Posts
Everything about this sounds like a simple mistake and not fraud. If the previous owner was willing to commit a crime just to make money, he would have been selling the car for a much higher price. Sounds like you got a great deal, assuming the condition is consistent with a 40k mile car.
08-08-2014, 06:57 AM
#18
There may have been another car in the shop with similar mileage at the time and the numbers just got crossed. If everything else about the records is in line, I wouldn't disregard all that data based on one receipt that is out of spec. Mistakes happen when there are humans involved.
Everything about this sounds like a simple mistake and not fraud. If the previous owner was willing to commit a crime just to make money, he would have been selling the car for a much higher price. Sounds like you got a great deal, assuming the condition is consistent with a 40k mile car.
Everything about this sounds like a simple mistake and not fraud. If the previous owner was willing to commit a crime just to make money, he would have been selling the car for a much higher price. Sounds like you got a great deal, assuming the condition is consistent with a 40k mile car.
08-08-2014, 10:36 AM
#19
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There may have been another car in the shop with similar mileage at the time and the numbers just got crossed. If everything else about the records is in line, I wouldn't disregard all that data based on one receipt that is out of spec. Mistakes happen when there are humans involved.
Everything about this sounds like a simple mistake and not fraud. If the previous owner was willing to commit a crime just to make money, he would have been selling the car for a much higher price. Sounds like you got a great deal, assuming the condition is consistent with a 40k mile car.
Everything about this sounds like a simple mistake and not fraud. If the previous owner was willing to commit a crime just to make money, he would have been selling the car for a much higher price. Sounds like you got a great deal, assuming the condition is consistent with a 40k mile car.
08-08-2014, 10:37 AM
#20
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts