Just Venting
#21
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
^ I covered that woven ground strap with wire loom and electrical tape, and moved the rest of it as far away from the top of the alternator case as possible (using wire ties to attach it to the wire loom near it.) That solved my voltage drop issue under load.
#22
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (40)
Works for now, but something is wrong. You may have inadvertently fixed some other issue while you were there.
But hey if it's working then it's working. Glad you got it.
#23
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
Originally Posted by RPM WS6
My '98 was like this, the ground strap was laying on top of the alternator near the open vents. Under certain conditions (such as engine twist under hard acceleration), that ground strap would drag across the ventilated area of the alternator and somehow upset its operation (I would see quick dips into the red.) After trying several other fixes, including a new alternator, I finally insulated that ground strap and all my issues went away (and have stayed away for over a decade.)
#24
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Here is my earlier reply on this:
It doesn't seem like this should have caused such a disruption, but I traced/checked/replaced all other associated items (including wiring and alternator; same results with multiple known-good alternators) and saw no improvement until taking the final step of removing the exposed ground from the open area of the alternator....after which the problem immediately went away and never returned. That was well over 10 years ago, so I think it's safe to say that my particular issue is resolved.
It doesn't seem like this should have caused such a disruption, but I traced/checked/replaced all other associated items (including wiring and alternator; same results with multiple known-good alternators) and saw no improvement until taking the final step of removing the exposed ground from the open area of the alternator....after which the problem immediately went away and never returned. That was well over 10 years ago, so I think it's safe to say that my particular issue is resolved.
#26
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Final question, from the pics I posted last night is that how you route the wires? Anyone have pics on how they route their wires from the alternator? Thanks for being patient on this lengthy boring repetitive post, been posting late hours and or when I'm really tired and shot.
#29
#30
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (40)
Sure have. What's it got to do with a ground touching a ground. And me saying it was a fix was me being nice, the wire that he was describing is bare for a reason, because it doesn't matter if it touches anything. There is likely something else going on.
The ground circuit (the alt case and ground wire) is a common circuit, you can't retouch something that's already touching.
The case is a ground the ground wire is a ground.
The case doesn't break connection with the engine block that is grounded due to the electromagnetic field.
But please, explain in detail how it affected his car and applies in this case.
By the way, that wire is copper or copper aluminum alloy, both of which both are non ferrous..
The ground circuit (the alt case and ground wire) is a common circuit, you can't retouch something that's already touching.
The case is a ground the ground wire is a ground.
The case doesn't break connection with the engine block that is grounded due to the electromagnetic field.
But please, explain in detail how it affected his car and applies in this case.
By the way, that wire is copper or copper aluminum alloy, both of which both are non ferrous..
Last edited by 00pooterSS; 12-26-2017 at 01:06 PM.
#31
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
No need to "be nice", I'm quite sure nothing else is going on as this problem was solved over a decade ago and never returned. I tried several things to fix this, and eventually found that I could duplicate the problem by power braking (simulating engine twist under acceleration load) and having a helper watch what was happening. That wire would drag across the open area of the alternator case under heavy load, presumably creating some amount of friction under that condition. It would only cause a voltage drop when dragging during engine twist, when just laying there it was not a problem. The final fix was to simply zip-tie that wire away from the alternator case (and I later tucked it into some wire loom, though I agree this wasn't really necessary once it was off of the alternator case); I didn't have to tighten anything, nor replace any connectors or wires or anything else, and the alternator on the car today was already in service when the issue was still happening prior to moving that ground strap. No matter what else I replaced or tried, I could duplicate the problem on command until I moved that ground strap - since then (around ~2006), the issue has never returned.
#32
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (96)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 0
Received 81 Likes
on
72 Posts
In my roughly 20 years of working on cars I agree with pooterss. The actual touching of the wire was irrelevant. What is more likely is maybe a faulty crimp at the end that stress caused to be worse, also sort of irrelevant due to the engine block already being grounded. All mechanical items can do weird stuff, unseen stuff, and not all thats happening is what you directly see with your eyes. All is useless now due to the time frame, but its illogical overall for the sake of discussion purposes. I realize your mind is made up and you wont believe this.
#33
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
I agree here. Sometimes things happen that don't make obvious sense, sometimes the fix doesn't seem like it should work, but ultimately it does. For the record, I'm not suggesting that passive contact with the alternator case was the issue (since the issue never happened at idle or at steady cruise), and I don't know what else that ground strap may have been contacting under load/twist where it sat previously, perhaps some marginal area relating to the exciter wire or connector, but those appeared fine when I changed the alternator itself (and the issue persisted exactly the same with multiple alternators.) All I can say with certainty is that moving it resolved the issue and has kept it resolved for thousands of miles and over 10 years.
#34
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (40)
In my roughly 20 years of working on cars I agree with pooterss. The actual touching of the wire was irrelevant. What is more likely is maybe a faulty crimp at the end that stress caused to be worse, also sort of irrelevant due to the engine block already being grounded. All mechanical items can do weird stuff, unseen stuff, and not all thats happening is what you directly see with your eyes. All is useless now due to the time frame, but its illogical overall for the sake of discussion purposes. I realize your mind is made up and you wont believe this.
I agree here. Sometimes things happen that don't make obvious sense, sometimes the fix doesn't seem like it should work, but ultimately it does. For the record, I'm not suggesting that passive contact with the alternator case was the issue (since the issue never happened at idle or at steady cruise), and I don't know what else that ground strap may have been contacting under load/twist where it sat previously, perhaps some marginal area relating to the exciter wire or connector, but those appeared fine when I changed the alternator itself (and the issue persisted exactly the same with multiple alternators.) All I can say with certainty is that moving it resolved the issue and has kept it resolved for thousands of miles and over 10 years.
The being nice thing just meant I didn't want to argue and call you wrong, not that I had some dick **** to say or anything. But I did mean if it works it is a fix, it is, to a degree. Meaning you have no more problems so whatever works works. If you ever stumble upon what the actual cause was update this thread I'd love to know what the real deal is.
#35
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
Yeah that's the thing man, must have been a coincidence of some sort. That wire was always all over my alternator without issue.
The being nice thing just meant I didn't want to argue and call you wrong, not that I had some dick **** to say or anything. But I did mean if it works it is a fix, it is, to a degree. Meaning you have no more problems so whatever works works.
The being nice thing just meant I didn't want to argue and call you wrong, not that I had some dick **** to say or anything. But I did mean if it works it is a fix, it is, to a degree. Meaning you have no more problems so whatever works works.
This was a frustrating issue when it happened. Perhaps this may help someone in the future.
#36
I'm a Electrical Systems Engineer.................. you have no idea how a ground wire touch another ground point in a system can effect all kinds of things. Ever heard of a faraday cage? I'm not going to try to convince anyone about anything. But I will say this to ALL of you, when a professional tells you something try to listen carefully.
#37
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (40)
I'm a Electrical Systems Engineer.................. you have no idea how a ground wire touch another ground point in a system can effect all kinds of things. Ever heard of a faraday cage? I'm not going to try to convince anyone about anything. But I will say this to ALL of you, when a professional tells you something try to listen carefully.
I'm glad you're an electrical engineer, I work in the field we are talking about and have been at master level for over 10 years.
So what were you saying about listening to a professional?
Lol. Pissing match eh?
#38
I also a master tech with OVER 40 years experience. The buck stops here.
Oh yeah I forgot I'm also a certified HVAC tech AND when carbs were the thing I was the guy you brought your carbs(differentials too) to get them right. I also graduated HS and College. Ran a LARGE GM service dept for 10 years AND a LARGE commercial industrial electrical- production dept for 30+. I still do electrical and automotive consulting for many many people, after they get screwed at the dealers they eventually get to me. I am a Professional with vast real world experience. The people who call me know to listen carefully. I also have a very high IQ Percentile. Can't we all get along? LMAO
Oh yeah I forgot I'm also a certified HVAC tech AND when carbs were the thing I was the guy you brought your carbs(differentials too) to get them right. I also graduated HS and College. Ran a LARGE GM service dept for 10 years AND a LARGE commercial industrial electrical- production dept for 30+. I still do electrical and automotive consulting for many many people, after they get screwed at the dealers they eventually get to me. I am a Professional with vast real world experience. The people who call me know to listen carefully. I also have a very high IQ Percentile. Can't we all get along? LMAO
Last edited by RockinWs6; 12-27-2017 at 07:24 PM.
#39
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,362
Likes: 0
Received 1,794 Likes
on
1,278 Posts
So I guess we have multiple professionals involved in this, some with different opinions. No need for a pissing match though, I'm just glad that the problem is LONG gone - which is ultimately all that matters.
#40
I was having issues with a TA where the ALT would light up and overcharge for a few seconds, Cost me many headlamps from the voltage surge. Before replacing anything I simply removed all the wiring from the ALT inspected them and reinstalled them with silicone grease to seal the atmosphere out from letting small amounts of moisture to react to the electrons moving through the connections that cause slight resistance in the circuits causing electronic devices to misinterpret circuit values causing charging spikes . Problem solved.