md420

and I'll take that 454 with boost over your 346

Finite1

iTrader: (3)

My buddy with a 69' camaro is looking at a custom 632 making around 1000hp/850t

oh big displacement are beasts alright. that pretty much takes any 3200lb ready car and makes it run 8's.


on the other hand, in the early "turbo" years of F1 racing, didn't they use really small 1.5liter cars and blow them to like 750+hp?

md420

I think they were around 3.0's or 3.5's

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I have nothing aganist big displacement motors at all. But having said that, you can make 1000hp with a lot less than 632 cubes in the world of SEFI motors. Granted, you'd be talking about using some sort of FI to do it, but on the same note I can't recall ever seeing an NA carbed 632ci motor make 1000hp either.....

MrDavid

iTrader: (11)

Actually, performance died in 1970. That was the last year of a true high compression car, but the first year of the 454. The LS-6 mentioned earlier came in 1970 with 10.5.1 compression, and in 71 it was backed way off and the motors began to lose horsepower due to the valves being made smaller and no compression. 1976 was pretty much the bottom of the barrell on horsepower and performance.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Again, I think the '73-'74 455-SD T/As were the last of the true performance motors until 1986. Even with only 290-310hp ratings, they were still turning comparable track times to their '67-70 competition.

IMO, the "dark ages" of performance was '75-'85. In that era, there was really nothing that resembled performance. The only honorable mentions might be the '79 10th ann T/As, when optioned with a 4-speed they received the old pontiac 400ci motor rather than the Olds 403ci that went into all the other V8 'birds. Also the "hot air" turbo buicks of '84-'85 at least made 200hp. But still these are sad examples of performance.

1986 was a HUGE step forward with the introduction of the intercooled 3.8L EFI Turbo Buick LC2 motor. And 1987 was a decent step forward for the pushrod V8 motor, with the aluminum headed L98s making 270hp.

Finite1

iTrader: (3)

He's in his 30's, nearing 40, so thats what he's into.

here's one he showed me

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

^^^^ Damn. Wonder what sort of compression that motor has to make 1000hp NA with those sort of cubes (I'm guessing 565ci?). LOL, probably can't idle at less than 1500rpm either.

EchoMirage

iTrader: (3)

No...400s were available from 67 through 79, in different variations. it was not 'all other V8 birds', because my 78 Trans Am has a 400, high performance option W72 with 220hp and a 4spd. in california, all V8s were the 185hp 403 Olds. up till 78, you could get any engine/trans option you want. in 79, if you wanted an auto, you got the 403. if you wanted a stick, you got the 400. it wasnt just for the 10th aniv. editions. 400s were also NOT made in 79. they were left over from 78, and saved just for the stick cars.

also......its 'my olds 455', NOT 454....jesus, come on. 454 is chevy.....455 is Pontiac, Buick, and Olds.

md420

This thread has gone way off what has allready been said and what needs to be taken into account. I am a ls1/ls2 fan but these small blocks in the end can still only make so much power without spray or some sort of FI and that power level is nowhere near what a big block can do in most cases. There is absolute no replacement for displacement in the N/A world and N/A IMO is where you tell a engines abilities as any engine can make massive power with boost(hell there are 1.5 honda engines turning over 500whp with it).

You can preach technology all you want but it is now also available for the bigger displacement engines. More air moved equals more oxygen in the cyl, more oxygen allows more fuel and the combo of them plus timing equal more power period no matter how you look at it. I am not trying to come off as a know it all *** but the truth is the truth and anyone who disputs cold hard fact is a platform nutrider.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

That is what I was refering to about the 10th ann cars. These were the only ones in '79 that still got the 400ci (when optioned with a 4-speed), thus being an honorable mention because it was the last year you could get the left over 400 motor. I think you missed my point.

Finite1

iTrader: (3)

that one is not bad for under 15k.

yeah I think that company is in IL also. They make a ton of sweet looking motors. sportman, pro series, nitrous series, ultra street, etc.

go check it out if you feel like it, they list all the parts and stuff.. you probably know more about this than me

I was kinda stunned at the ultra street he was mentioning, its on the site 635ci making 1000hp/865t

http://www.shafiroff.com/

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I was just looking up the production figures for '79 and here is what I found:

211,454 Firebirds were built in 1979. 117,109 were Trans Ams.

8,800 400ci motors were stored/left over from 1978 to be used in the 4-speed '79 cars. 1,817 of these L78 400ci motors were used in the 10th ann cars. That leaves only 7000 of the L78 400s left for other 4-speed Trans Ams and Formulas. I think there were likely more than 7,000 4-speed V8 Firebirds built to be sold outside of CA considering a production run of 211,454 total units. So some of the 4-speed '79 T/As must have been 403ci motors later in the '79 model year. I can't find the breakdown for auto vs manual in my records though.

EchoMirage

iTrader: (3)

im not arguing, but im 95% positive that in 79, all sticks were 400, and all autos were 403. im also fairly sure that in 79, there were still 2 different versions of the 400. W72 and L78, L78 being the base 200hp i believe, and W72 the high performance 220hp. and as the years went on, there became less and less sticks.

slick1851

Im not talking about built drag cars, Of couse BBC and BBFs and Mopars blah blah can be built to do anything...


Im talking about there 68 camaros with 350s, or 340 dusters etc....

They really werent that fast..........

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I checked through all my old Pontiac records again, here is everything I have on 1979 V8 motor options:

L78 = 400ci Pontiac motor with 220hp @4000rpm and 320tq @2800rpm
L80 = 403ci Olds motor with 185hp

Also, the 150hp 301ci motor offered with the auto or manual for CA.

The L78 seems to be the "HiPo" V8 of the year, with the 220hp rating. I can't find anything about a 200hp "base" 400ci motor. Not sure what "W72" is, but it's not the 220hp 400ci for '79.

Considering there were only 8,800 400ci blocks left for 1979, I just find it hard to beleive that only 8,800 of the 117,109 Trans Ams were manuals, and that's not even counting the Formulas with manuals either. Looking at the ratio of auto trans to manual trans in the 10th ann cars (1817 with M4 vs 5683 with A3), thats 25% being manual. If you apply that ratio to the entire production run of Trans Ams only (since all T/As were V8s), that would be 29,277 units built with a manual trans, not counting the Formulas. So with only 8,800 400ci motors to use, well over 20,000 units would have received either the 301 V8 (for CA residents) or the Olds 403ci.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Found more info:

LD5 = Buick 231ci V6

L27 = Pontiac 301ci V8 (140hp)

L37 = Pontiac 301ci V8 (150hp)

LG3 = Chevy 305ci V8

LM1 = Chevy 350ci V8

L78 = Pontiac 400ci V8

L80 = Olds 403ci V8

All these motors were optional in the 1979 Firebirds or Trans Am.

24,851 Formulas were built and 117,109 Trans Ams. So that's 141,960 V8s at a minimum. There had to be more than 8,800 manuals though (obviously subtracting the 301ci cars from CA) looking at the 25% manual to auto ratio in the 7,500 10th ann cars, but I can't find the build numbers on that for some reason. The catalog does state that only approximately 8,800 400ci motors were stored for use in 1979.

landstuhltaylor

iTrader: (6)

BMW eventually got 1500hp in qualifying trim out of a 1.5 liter block. they got the blocks from production cars that had put over 100,000 miles on them as all the stresses in the block were worked out.

98TADRIVER

iTrader: (36)

i beg to differ there. i talked to my fair share of older fellas who grew up around muscle cars in the 60's and 70's and when i told him what stock 4th gens can run from the factory and then with some basic bolt on performance parts, he said i was bullshitting him, then he went online and did some reading up on them. the next day he told me "we needed motorwork to get into the 12s or faster; you younger kids have fuelinjection, computers and all that Technology on your side"

Starz T/A 17

iTrader: (6)

Another thing to remember is that your average hot rodder with the weight of cars back then and tires were happy with 13's, 12's were a rare thing, and people who used thier cars as strip only ran 11's
I remember the first time I went to the track and told my dad I ran a 13 flat and was pissed b/c I didnt get in the 12's and he said that ALMOST ALL cars back in his day were happy with 13's and most were in the 14's. He even told me that one of his buddies had a camaro that was fully striped out with 4:10's huge cam and slicks that was only doin 11's, now you put a 150 shot on a stock LS1 you got 11's, its just some of them have been out of the game for a while and dont understand new technology