Dex-Cool or Green Antifreeze?
02-03-2010, 09:19 PM
#21
the lawsuit can be read about here and easily found via google
http://www.girardgibbs.com/dexcool.html
the vehicles covered under the lawsuit: no LS engines!
http://www.gohtsn.com/article_1105.shtml
you can also read more technical **** about it here:
http://www.imcool.com/
the real failure with dexcool which no one seems to want to understand is that is was on a select number of engines having intake manifold gaskets containing nylon. The 2-eha additive in dexcool attacks the nylon and causes the gasket to fail, simple as that. The LS engine, while having a plastic intake manifold which is made of nylon, is dry! It does not have coolant running through it nor never comes near it, so it is not a problem. And the problem on the v-6 engines that had intake manifold gaskets that were incompatible with dexcool was easily fixed via a TSB and a new intake manifold gasket of a different material.
Ford had known about the dexcool problem through testing, and Honda advised GM about it via some memos because GM was using the Honda-supplied 3.5L V6 in the saturn vue and honda knew the 2-eha in dexcool was incompatible with gasket materials used in the engine... whether those materials were the exact same type as the intake manifold gaskets in all the GM cars that had failures is not known, and if they weren't the same then it proves nothing. But this is why GM is getting sued over dexcool, and it is for the specific vehicles having incompatible intake manifold gaskets with dexcool and not honoring repair under warranty when the failures happened.
Motor Magazine, 2004, "coolant confusion"
The inhibitor 2-EHA works well in hard water and is more effective than sebacate at lower pH levels (when the coolant moves from the alkaline and toward the acid side), particularly for cast iron. Well, GM has a number of cast iron engines. When there’s a low coolant level in the coolant passages,
the exposed cast iron rusts. Apparently, that rust is washed away later by flowing coolant, and is deposited in the heat exchangers. It eventually produces the rust powder problems that have been so widely observed (see MOTOR’s August 2002 issue at www.motor.com). Why does the coolant level in these engines drop? The original radiator cap design was blamed for some of the issue, but there probably are a number of causes, including owner neglect and normal seepage. However, the rust powder issue is not a problem that was observed with the previously used conventional American coolant.
The inhibitor 2-EHA poses another issue: It’s a plasticizer (softens plastic), so
it has been blamed for coolant passage gasket leakage. Softening (and the resulting distortion) was reported by Ford, which encountered gasket leakage
problems when it tested a DexCooltype formula on its V8 engines. Ford also
saw similar issues with other gasket materials. That killed the OAT coolant
idea for Ford, which had used a Dex- Cool-like coolant in the ’99 Cougar V6.
The inhibitor 2-EHA works well in hard water and is more effective than sebacate at lower pH levels (when the coolant moves from the alkaline and toward the acid side), particularly for cast iron. Well, GM has a number of cast iron engines. When there’s a low coolant level in the coolant passages,
the exposed cast iron rusts. Apparently, that rust is washed away later by flowing coolant, and is deposited in the heat exchangers. It eventually produces the rust powder problems that have been so widely observed (see MOTOR’s August 2002 issue at www.motor.com). Why does the coolant level in these engines drop? The original radiator cap design was blamed for some of the issue, but there probably are a number of causes, including owner neglect and normal seepage. However, the rust powder issue is not a problem that was observed with the previously used conventional American coolant.
The inhibitor 2-EHA poses another issue: It’s a plasticizer (softens plastic), so
it has been blamed for coolant passage gasket leakage. Softening (and the resulting distortion) was reported by Ford, which encountered gasket leakage
problems when it tested a DexCooltype formula on its V8 engines. Ford also
saw similar issues with other gasket materials. That killed the OAT coolant
idea for Ford, which had used a Dex- Cool-like coolant in the ’99 Cougar V6.
The original green antifreeze will not damage aluminum, nor any other metal basically. It has silicate as the main additive to protect against corrosion, the problem with this is it only lasts 3 years then the antifreeze is worn out and doesn't protect and cooling system failure happens. The silicon is also more abrasive and harder on water pump seals than non-silicated antifreezes, especially if mixed at high antifreeze to water concentrations. And the other bad thing about the old style silicated coolants, if they're still sold even, is the silicate can fall out of suspension and form a green goo that then needs to be flushed out of the cooling system with an acid cleaner; this only happens under certain conditions- mainly neglect,or using bad water or improper mix ratios. This is why all the silicated coolants now are "low-silicate" and max out at something like 250 ppm, it will be on the label.
02-03-2010, 10:33 PM
#22
Do as you please but the info i gave is CORRECT. It will not work well in open systems like the firebird. Also if the system is run low acid will form quickly.
Tell me how many of you check the coolant level and condition once a month??? NONE i'll bet but using dexcool you better be!
It better be full and clean, also no matter what you do the acid is going to form in the open coolant tank and form a BROWN Sludge. I've seen it in EVERY firebird i've ever checked! using dexcool. YOU CAN"T BS ME About dexcool. I seen the damage too many times in my LS1 cars and many many others.
Any of you using dexcool pull your coolant tanks and drain them. I GARRANTY there will be BROWN sludge inside them......that brown crap is aluminum from inside your engine dexcool acids have converted. This brown sludge migrates to the coolant tank.
If you don't believe me talk to one of Prestones engineers.....I did.
Tell me how many of you check the coolant level and condition once a month??? NONE i'll bet but using dexcool you better be!
It better be full and clean, also no matter what you do the acid is going to form in the open coolant tank and form a BROWN Sludge. I've seen it in EVERY firebird i've ever checked! using dexcool. YOU CAN"T BS ME About dexcool. I seen the damage too many times in my LS1 cars and many many others.
Any of you using dexcool pull your coolant tanks and drain them. I GARRANTY there will be BROWN sludge inside them......that brown crap is aluminum from inside your engine dexcool acids have converted. This brown sludge migrates to the coolant tank.
If you don't believe me talk to one of Prestones engineers.....I did.
12-15-2012, 04:55 PM
#23
Do as you please but the info i gave is CORRECT. It will not work well in open systems like the firebird. Also if the system is run low acid will form quickly.
Tell me how many of you check the coolant level and condition once a month??? NONE i'll bet but using dexcool you better be!
It better be full and clean, also no matter what you do the acid is going to form in the open coolant tank and form a BROWN Sludge. I've seen it in EVERY firebird i've ever checked! using dexcool. YOU CAN"T BS ME About dexcool. I seen the damage too many times in my LS1 cars and many many others.
Any of you using dexcool pull your coolant tanks and drain them. I GARRANTY there will be BROWN sludge inside them......that brown crap is aluminum from inside your engine dexcool acids have converted. This brown sludge migrates to the coolant tank.
If you don't believe me talk to one of Prestones engineers.....I did.
Tell me how many of you check the coolant level and condition once a month??? NONE i'll bet but using dexcool you better be!
It better be full and clean, also no matter what you do the acid is going to form in the open coolant tank and form a BROWN Sludge. I've seen it in EVERY firebird i've ever checked! using dexcool. YOU CAN"T BS ME About dexcool. I seen the damage too many times in my LS1 cars and many many others.
Any of you using dexcool pull your coolant tanks and drain them. I GARRANTY there will be BROWN sludge inside them......that brown crap is aluminum from inside your engine dexcool acids have converted. This brown sludge migrates to the coolant tank.
If you don't believe me talk to one of Prestones engineers.....I did.
Old post....But still on the fence which to run here.
FWIW...I have a 1978 Camaro with a coolant over flow tank. It has ran with green anti-freeze for 30 years....There was brown junk in the bottle when I tossed it in the trash...My engine was ALL IRON. Even a year after I replaced the bottle, brown crap is starting to build up again....
I would not say Dex-Cool is to blame when the green stuff does the same thing.
I haven't seen a new car yet with a "sealed" cooling system. They all have over flow bottles and running pink dex cool.
12-15-2012, 06:39 PM
#24
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The real trouble with dexcrapo is once the damage starts its VERY hard to stop. As long as you maintain it properly yes decrapo is safe. But you better stay on top of it, I've seen it do unbelievable damage. I'm talking about ruined engines. I've also seen it block the coolant passages in the cylinder head gaskets in the LS1 with brown sludge.
12-16-2012, 08:21 AM
#27
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BS the green is fine for aluminum...where does all this bs start? Don't ya think aluminum engines have been around a LONG TIME? Alot longer than decrap...................GM really started alot misinformation and a TERRIBLE product! Its extremely toxic AND turns into acid very easily. I'll tell you best coolant you will ever put in your aluminum engine OR any engine is Propolyene Glycol<of couse misinformation and big corps have killed it.
Its safe to drink.....it won't turn to acid and won't turn into sludge. NAPA sells it and Amsoil sells it. It also last a VERY long time ...MUCh longer than dexcrap or the"green" stuff. The "green" stuff isn't much better than dexcool but at least it won't turn into acid nearly as quick as dexcrap. I've had several bad experieces with dexcool, I seen some crazy crazy damage situations caused by running dexcrap just because the system was run a little low over a long period of time.
Whats even crazier is GM knew about the problem and EVEN went as gfar as adding LOW COOLANT sensors to most of their cars. NOT TO WARN YOU ABOUT low coolant overheating but to warn you to add before dexcool turned into acid. Of Couse they will never admit this.
Its safe to drink.....it won't turn to acid and won't turn into sludge. NAPA sells it and Amsoil sells it. It also last a VERY long time ...MUCh longer than dexcrap or the"green" stuff. The "green" stuff isn't much better than dexcool but at least it won't turn into acid nearly as quick as dexcrap. I've had several bad experieces with dexcool, I seen some crazy crazy damage situations caused by running dexcrap just because the system was run a little low over a long period of time.
Whats even crazier is GM knew about the problem and EVEN went as gfar as adding LOW COOLANT sensors to most of their cars. NOT TO WARN YOU ABOUT low coolant overheating but to warn you to add before dexcool turned into acid. Of Couse they will never admit this.
12-16-2012, 08:28 AM
#28
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Old post....But still on the fence which to run here.
FWIW...I have a 1978 Camaro with a coolant over flow tank. It has ran with green anti-freeze for 30 years....There was brown junk in the bottle when I tossed it in the trash...My engine was ALL IRON. Even a year after I replaced the bottle, brown crap is starting to build up again....
I would not say Dex-Cool is to blame when the green stuff does the same thing.
I haven't seen a new car yet with a "sealed" cooling system. They all have over flow bottles and running pink dex cool.
FWIW...I have a 1978 Camaro with a coolant over flow tank. It has ran with green anti-freeze for 30 years....There was brown junk in the bottle when I tossed it in the trash...My engine was ALL IRON. Even a year after I replaced the bottle, brown crap is starting to build up again....
I would not say Dex-Cool is to blame when the green stuff does the same thing.
I haven't seen a new car yet with a "sealed" cooling system. They all have over flow bottles and running pink dex cool.
12-16-2012, 10:27 AM
#29
12-16-2012, 11:16 AM
#30
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i used distilled water and 2 bottles of water wetter FTW! i drain and refill once a year. However my car only gets driven 500miles a year or less currently lol. It is also kept in a heated garage.
12-16-2012, 01:09 PM
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For all the people that think Dexcool is some sort of evil-doer: I've had nothing but Dexcool in my '98 since day one. The entire cooling system is still 100% original, after nearly 15 years now. The trick has simply been to change the coolant regulary, same as with the old green stuff. I drain and refill the system every couple of years, so fresh is always being added. Following this method, it has never turned to sludge nor done anything unsavory to any cooling system components.
12-16-2012, 03:59 PM
#32
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whatever you do ...never mix the 2 green and dex ......what a effin mess ...
my old 95 z28 had that happen from the p.o ......took a long time to flush thank junk out ....
my old 95 z28 had that happen from the p.o ......took a long time to flush thank junk out ....
12-17-2012, 07:31 PM
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I worked for dealerships back when the dexcool Blazer issues were common, so I was brainwashed into thinking that Dex was bad.. So when I bought my Camaro in 03, I tried to flush everything out and put green stuff in. You can never get all of it out. But dex does gel up if you have a leak... (IIRC)
12-17-2012, 07:34 PM
#36
I personally dont like dexcool. Every time I've bought a car that had it, the radiator was clogged with brown sludge. I've never seen this happen with the green stuff no matter the time change interval. I'm sure dexcool would be ok if changed regularly but for me i'd just like to play it safe, which is why I have had the green stuff now for 3 years and its been great, no sludge or slime. I cant say the same for the dexcrap
12-17-2012, 08:55 PM
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FWIR, if it sludges up it means there's a leak in the system somewhere. I occasionally smell coolant and I think it's from one of my rear block off plugs on the heads, but it never hits the ground and always feels dry. No clue where it's coming from and started after the 102 swap.
12-17-2012, 10:13 PM
#38
Never had a dexcool problem in any of the vehicles I've had that has used it, including the one that had not been maintained at all.
My Trailblazer's coolant tank doesn't have any brown gunk in it contrary to what mr know-it-all says. My old Camaro had some gunk residue but again it wasn't maintained so considering that it wasn't really bad at all.
Oh, and old thread is old.
My Trailblazer's coolant tank doesn't have any brown gunk in it contrary to what mr know-it-all says. My old Camaro had some gunk residue but again it wasn't maintained so considering that it wasn't really bad at all.
Oh, and old thread is old.
12-18-2012, 08:58 PM
#40
FWIR, if it sludges up it means there's a leak in the system somewhere. I occasionally smell coolant and I think it's from one of my rear block off plugs on the heads, but it never hits the ground and always feels dry. No clue where it's coming from and started after the 102 swap.