Need help to diagnose problem
04-28-2013, 09:12 AM
#21
I would try the idle relearn procedure since your battery was disconnected. Many times that will screw up your idle. It's happened to me a few times and it always worked.
Very simple to do.
Unplug the IAC, MAF, and TPS sensor plugs. Turn the key to the run position for 10 seconds, don't start it though, just to the run position. Turn the key off, plug the sensors back in, and then start it.
See if that helps, I bet it does. You may still have other problems but that may be why your idle has gotten so much worse since swapping the battery.
Very simple to do.
Unplug the IAC, MAF, and TPS sensor plugs. Turn the key to the run position for 10 seconds, don't start it though, just to the run position. Turn the key off, plug the sensors back in, and then start it.
See if that helps, I bet it does. You may still have other problems but that may be why your idle has gotten so much worse since swapping the battery.
04-28-2013, 09:24 AM
#22
Launching!
So I replaced the battery with a new one. Auto-craft Gold battery from Advance Autoparts. When I had the old one out I cleaned about 5 grounds that I could get to.
Main battery ground, one right in front of the radiator cap, one in front of the fuse box, one behind the fuse box and one underneath near the alternator with a braid ground attached as well.
Cleaned them all real good with a wire brush and dusted them off. Everything looked a lot better. I know there are more but I have no idea how to get to them.
I started the car up and it ran a lot worse than it ever has. It sounded and felt terrible like it was going to die any second. Stumbling like crazy. Smelled pretty strong too but wasn't a gas smell. Same thing when giving it some gas in neutral it just stumbled like hell and then felt like it was going to die when you come off the gas.
It did die after giving it some gas a few times. When I tried to start it after it died, it wouldn't start. Turned over fine but acted like it was out of gas. Gave it some pretty good gas while trying to start it and then it finally started rough. Ran a little better than the time before but not much. Turned it off again and started it again. Seemed somehow better this time. No idea what would all of a sudden have changed. Then it idled fine for about 10 min before i cussed it and turned it off.
I know for sure I didn't move or unplug or bump anything else when working on the grounds. I was very careful. The only thing that might have happened is something with the ground on the back of the driver's side head. I was able to get my hand on that one slightly but that's about it. I didn't pull it or anything just felt the wire and the bolt and that' it.
Still a lot to try that was suggested above but if anyone has any addtional input or ideas based on my latest findings please let me know!
Main battery ground, one right in front of the radiator cap, one in front of the fuse box, one behind the fuse box and one underneath near the alternator with a braid ground attached as well.
Cleaned them all real good with a wire brush and dusted them off. Everything looked a lot better. I know there are more but I have no idea how to get to them.
I started the car up and it ran a lot worse than it ever has. It sounded and felt terrible like it was going to die any second. Stumbling like crazy. Smelled pretty strong too but wasn't a gas smell. Same thing when giving it some gas in neutral it just stumbled like hell and then felt like it was going to die when you come off the gas.
It did die after giving it some gas a few times. When I tried to start it after it died, it wouldn't start. Turned over fine but acted like it was out of gas. Gave it some pretty good gas while trying to start it and then it finally started rough. Ran a little better than the time before but not much. Turned it off again and started it again. Seemed somehow better this time. No idea what would all of a sudden have changed. Then it idled fine for about 10 min before i cussed it and turned it off.
I know for sure I didn't move or unplug or bump anything else when working on the grounds. I was very careful. The only thing that might have happened is something with the ground on the back of the driver's side head. I was able to get my hand on that one slightly but that's about it. I didn't pull it or anything just felt the wire and the bolt and that' it.
Still a lot to try that was suggested above but if anyone has any addtional input or ideas based on my latest findings please let me know!
04-28-2013, 09:44 AM
#24
Launching!
Idle re-learn from another thread:
This is a must for my car. After pulling the battery, or disconnecting the PCM.
On first start, the car will barely run, I have to use the throttle to keep it alive. I vary the RPMs between Idle and 2500 a few times, then turn the car off.
On second start, everything is as it should be. It runs fine.
I used to think that I was leaving a plug wire off or something, and after every first start would get out, check the plugs and everything else. Then on next start, it would be fine.
Now, before the car leaves the garage, it is started at least twice.
On first start, the car will barely run, I have to use the throttle to keep it alive. I vary the RPMs between Idle and 2500 a few times, then turn the car off.
On second start, everything is as it should be. It runs fine.
I used to think that I was leaving a plug wire off or something, and after every first start would get out, check the plugs and everything else. Then on next start, it would be fine.
Now, before the car leaves the garage, it is started at least twice.
04-28-2013, 10:53 AM
#25
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you dicked with the grounds and caused a change. That's actually good news, because now you have a cause and effect.
TAKE YOUR TIME and trace out all of the grounds. Also, unplug the MAF until you get her started and running half-assed. Takes that out of the equation for now.
02 sensors will NOT cause a start up issue. The car runs in open loop until it hits a set temperature. Check the plugs, and check fuel pressure. Pretty much any shop will have a pressure gauge that will screw into the Schrader valve on your driver's side fuel rail... or you can make an adapter for pretty cheap. It's a 37 degree hydraulic fitting, can't remember the size. AC or refrigeration parts stores have it.
TAKE YOUR TIME and trace out all of the grounds. Also, unplug the MAF until you get her started and running half-assed. Takes that out of the equation for now.
02 sensors will NOT cause a start up issue. The car runs in open loop until it hits a set temperature. Check the plugs, and check fuel pressure. Pretty much any shop will have a pressure gauge that will screw into the Schrader valve on your driver's side fuel rail... or you can make an adapter for pretty cheap. It's a 37 degree hydraulic fitting, can't remember the size. AC or refrigeration parts stores have it.
Plugs should be arriving in the next few days. Do you have any suggestions how to get to the grounds on the engine? I've done a lot of reading and haven't really seen any good way to get at them. The one i got my hand on in the back of the driver's side head, I could barely touch it. I have no idea how i'd get any kind of wrench or socket on that or if it's even the right thing since I can't see it.
Can't think of much else that would be bolted on back there with a wire comin off it. I believe there is that one and maybe 1-2 others on the engine / firewall. Once you can actually get one off, how the hell do you clean it? Can't imagine i'd be able to work a wire brush around with much success if I can barely reach the thing with one hand let alone two. Is there something incredibly easy I'm missing with this?
04-28-2013, 11:15 AM
#26
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I would try the idle relearn procedure since your battery was disconnected. Many times that will screw up your idle. It's happened to me a few times and it always worked.
Very simple to do.
Unplug the IAC, MAF, and TPS sensor plugs. Turn the key to the run position for 10 seconds, don't start it though, just to the run position. Turn the key off, plug the sensors back in, and then start it.
See if that helps, I bet it does. You may still have other problems but that may be why your idle has gotten so much worse since swapping the battery.
Very simple to do.
Unplug the IAC, MAF, and TPS sensor plugs. Turn the key to the run position for 10 seconds, don't start it though, just to the run position. Turn the key off, plug the sensors back in, and then start it.
See if that helps, I bet it does. You may still have other problems but that may be why your idle has gotten so much worse since swapping the battery.
http://www.installuniversity.com/ls1...tallation.html
I think in figure 5 it shows the IAT, MAF, IAC and TPS. Is that correct?
04-28-2013, 12:54 PM
#27
Yup. Top to bottom in that picture unplug the first 3 blue arrows.
Fuel filter can definitely give you problems like you're having. I've seen it on more than one occasion. People neglect it for some reason and it can slowly rob power from your car until one day you wonder why your car seems slower than it used to be.
Fuel filter is easy to replace, try a search or installu, you just need to take care to use protective gloves and eyewear when you're under there. If you get any gas on your skin , and you probably will, wash it off right away with soap and warm water.
Get that gauge on there and find out what the fuel pressure is. That's the easiest/cheapest way to at least narrow it down by half. Regardless, even if the pressure is good I'd replace that filter.
Fuel filter can definitely give you problems like you're having. I've seen it on more than one occasion. People neglect it for some reason and it can slowly rob power from your car until one day you wonder why your car seems slower than it used to be.
Fuel filter is easy to replace, try a search or installu, you just need to take care to use protective gloves and eyewear when you're under there. If you get any gas on your skin , and you probably will, wash it off right away with soap and warm water.
Get that gauge on there and find out what the fuel pressure is. That's the easiest/cheapest way to at least narrow it down by half. Regardless, even if the pressure is good I'd replace that filter.
04-28-2013, 08:37 PM
#28
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Yup. Top to bottom in that picture unplug the first 3 blue arrows.
Fuel filter can definitely give you problems like you're having. I've seen it on more than one occasion. People neglect it for some reason and it can slowly rob power from your car until one day you wonder why your car seems slower than it used to be.
Fuel filter is easy to replace, try a search or installu, you just need to take care to use protective gloves and eyewear when you're under there. If you get any gas on your skin , and you probably will, wash it off right away with soap and warm water.
Get that gauge on there and find out what the fuel pressure is. That's the easiest/cheapest way to at least narrow it down by half. Regardless, even if the pressure is good I'd replace that filter.
Fuel filter can definitely give you problems like you're having. I've seen it on more than one occasion. People neglect it for some reason and it can slowly rob power from your car until one day you wonder why your car seems slower than it used to be.
Fuel filter is easy to replace, try a search or installu, you just need to take care to use protective gloves and eyewear when you're under there. If you get any gas on your skin , and you probably will, wash it off right away with soap and warm water.
Get that gauge on there and find out what the fuel pressure is. That's the easiest/cheapest way to at least narrow it down by half. Regardless, even if the pressure is good I'd replace that filter.
Ok so the idle relearn didn't seem to change much of anything. Unplugged all 3, turned the ignition to the on position for about 10 seconds then turned it off. Plugged all 3 back in and started the car. Not really any change. Started ok but still stumbled quite a bit during first 3-5 minutes of running. Occasionally lights would dim when it stumbled hard. Give it any gas and it stumbles hard as well. Sounds like a beater trying to rev up. Seemed to have a really strong fume smell but still not a lot of gas smell to the fumes. Got a bit of white smoke from the exhaust too. Not a ton but a noticable amount and it seemed sporadic. Not that cold out either maybe 48-50 degrees.
After idling for a bit for the fuel pressure test it seemed to smooth out. Could still kind of hear / feel the occasional stumble. After reaching operating temp or what I suspect is close to operating temp (seems that gauge is having issues as well yay) I did the fuel pressure test.
Test showed 50psi when first connecting the gauge and turning the ignition on. Can hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds as well so it's at least functional that far. The odd part is I read it should drop 3-10psi after starting the car. I actually gained 10psi and was getting 60psi while it was running. I did the test twice to make sure it was accurate clearing the pressure with the release valve each time.
I don't know a lot about what this would mean but it doesn't really sound right.
Last edited by iLLuSi0nz; 04-28-2013 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Additional info left out
04-29-2013, 01:54 AM
#29
did you watch pressure while blipping the throttle? A partially clogged filter could allow enough fuel to keep fuel pressure up at idle, but create enough of a restriction to starve the engine under any kind of load.
Also, I've noticed that a few WOT pulls really help knock the cobwebs off, when all else fails.
Also, I've noticed that a few WOT pulls really help knock the cobwebs off, when all else fails.
04-29-2013, 03:54 PM
#31
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did you watch pressure while blipping the throttle? A partially clogged filter could allow enough fuel to keep fuel pressure up at idle, but create enough of a restriction to starve the engine under any kind of load.
Also, I've noticed that a few WOT pulls really help knock the cobwebs off, when all else fails.
Also, I've noticed that a few WOT pulls really help knock the cobwebs off, when all else fails.
Is it normal for the pressure to start at 50 and go to 60 after starting the car? I thought it was supposed to be around 55-60 before you start it then drop a bit once starting? Did I read that wrong?
Fuel filter is probably one of the next few things that will get done once the weather is a little better. Plugs arrived today so can also get started on those. Can't wait for the rear plug on the passenger side!
04-29-2013, 03:57 PM
#32
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Also once you get a longer extension how do you run it into the car? I'd thing closing the hood would smash it? Do you have to put a hole in the firewall or something crazy? Would I be better off adding an actual gauge that mounts inside the car and always monitors the fuel pressure?
04-30-2013, 10:37 PM
#33
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I did the fuel pressure test again tonight. Right around 48-50psi again while the key is turned to the on position. After starting the car it goes up to 60. Giving the car gas doesn't seem to do too much to the gauge. It kind of jitters really fast for a second down to like 54-56psi but goes right back to 60. Normal?
Also still showing some signs of sputtering and losing power. Still has that feel a bit for say the first 1-2 minutes after starting it cold. Also seems to randomly drop just a tiny bit after warming up while idling. I noticed I could also kind of make it dim lights like it was losing power after reving it about 2500 or higher. On the way down it seemed to blip around 1500 but not while giving it throttle.
I also noticed the last time that my temperature gauge is not working right either. The fan kicks on literally as soon as you start the car and really never turns off. Possibly related?
Also getting a new code since doing all the ground work and replacing the battery. P0452. Interesting how that could also be ground related. I think my fuel pressure is reading ok. No one was like OMFG your pressure is bad when I posted about the first test. I don't know enough to know for sure if the above was were it should be though.
I did recently replace my gas cap with a locking one and didn't have any problems with that code. I swapped the caps before creating this thread and wasn't throwing any codes even after driving it with that a few times. Car has only idled in the driveway since throwing that particular code. Locking cap seems to be pretty good seal but I've heard they can leak through the key area.
Still lookin to get some info on running a fuel pressure gauge (even if only temporary) up on the windshield or around to the driver or passenger window. Anyone have any info on that?
Fuel filter goin in this weekend. Fuel pump may be next.
Also still showing some signs of sputtering and losing power. Still has that feel a bit for say the first 1-2 minutes after starting it cold. Also seems to randomly drop just a tiny bit after warming up while idling. I noticed I could also kind of make it dim lights like it was losing power after reving it about 2500 or higher. On the way down it seemed to blip around 1500 but not while giving it throttle.
I also noticed the last time that my temperature gauge is not working right either. The fan kicks on literally as soon as you start the car and really never turns off. Possibly related?
Also getting a new code since doing all the ground work and replacing the battery. P0452. Interesting how that could also be ground related. I think my fuel pressure is reading ok. No one was like OMFG your pressure is bad when I posted about the first test. I don't know enough to know for sure if the above was were it should be though.
I did recently replace my gas cap with a locking one and didn't have any problems with that code. I swapped the caps before creating this thread and wasn't throwing any codes even after driving it with that a few times. Car has only idled in the driveway since throwing that particular code. Locking cap seems to be pretty good seal but I've heard they can leak through the key area.
Still lookin to get some info on running a fuel pressure gauge (even if only temporary) up on the windshield or around to the driver or passenger window. Anyone have any info on that?
Fuel filter goin in this weekend. Fuel pump may be next.
05-01-2013, 12:19 PM
#34
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I read most of what is here, but not thoroughly. This sound like an electrical issue to me. Did you check and clean the ground on the back of the driver's side head? When this ground loses contact - either from corrosion or being loose - it makes the car act as if you are turning it off. I had my car sputter when it was loose. The sputtering was caused from the vibration of driving making the fuel pump have a good ground intermittently. It kills the fuel pump and gauges when it looses contact.
05-01-2013, 02:11 PM
#35
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I read most of what is here, but not thoroughly. This sound like an electrical issue to me. Did you check and clean the ground on the back of the driver's side head? When this ground loses contact - either from corrosion or being loose - it makes the car act as if you are turning it off. I had my car sputter when it was loose. The sputtering was caused from the vibration of driving making the fuel pump have a good ground intermittently. It kills the fuel pump and gauges when it looses contact.
Is there any good way to get to this? Even a crappy way would be better than where I am at the moment lol! Would it kill all the gauges or just some? Battery, Oil, speed and rpm gauges are all fine. Just seems to be only temperature and gas gauges that are dead.
Thanks for your input. Hopefully this thread can die soon!
05-02-2013, 07:54 PM
#36
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Anyone have any ideas on the best way to access the ground wires on the back of the header? Really want to check these out but I have no clue how to get back in there. What can come off that would make access easier? Anyone else had to do this?
05-03-2013, 12:23 PM
#37
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You said the temp gauge isn't working. If you have a broken coolant sensor, all of the problems you're describing would be caused by that as the coolant temp is used in conjunction with your other sensors to determine fuel/spark. You can find the coolant temp sensor on the drivers side head at the front, just behind the power steering pump.
05-03-2013, 09:11 PM
#38
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You said the temp gauge isn't working. If you have a broken coolant sensor, all of the problems you're describing would be caused by that as the coolant temp is used in conjunction with your other sensors to determine fuel/spark. You can find the coolant temp sensor on the drivers side head at the front, just behind the power steering pump.
There any tricks to installing one of these things? I know some fluid is going to be running out as soon as I pull the old one. Is there a better way? Drain something first for less mess?
Also, would it be possible at all for this sensor to mess with fuel level sensor?
05-05-2013, 12:23 AM
#39
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Well for anyone still following this, it was not the fuel filter. Replaced the filter and still pretty much acts the same. I am hoping to be able to do the coolant temperature sensor tomorrow now that I have all the crap I need for that.
FOR ANY OTHER FELLOW NEWBS TO CAR STUFF READ ON - (might be a good chuckle for others that know wtf they are doing! LOL)
I had the most trouble during all of this with putting the rear end of the car on jack stands. Probably would help if I knew what more of the **** under the car actually is and does (working on that).
I tried using the pictures on installuniveristy for LS1 lift points, and it didn't seem like my car wanted to sit level. One of the jack stands kept shifting and was on 1 leg. I'm not getting under a car like that!! It could possibly be that my driveway isn't level enough. Tried 5 or 6 times of moving it forward and backwards in that area showed in the pics. No luck and was getting pissed off!
At any rate I ended up jacking it up by the rear differential housing or (pumpkin) i guess it's sometimes called. I had to use a block of wood on my shitty *** jack to get it up high enough for cinder blocks. I basically just got it high enough to slide those under the back wheels. Careful with this too that you don't get into the cover of the differential as stated on the installu site. Dropped it down on the cinder blocks with the parking brake on and chocks on the front wheels.
If you have a good jack it will reach and rigging up the wood block isn't necessary. I forgot about the low clearance racing jack I bought at harbor freight last winter when it was on sale. I used this too for more support on the side I was working on to swap the filter. It would have worked better than the rig job on the rear diff. I'd recommend that jack, it's pretty nice.
Left both jacks in place and put jack stands under where it looked like it might save my *** if anything crazy happened and the car fell off the blocks or something. Checked the car real well before I went under also. Very sturdy.
The actual job of changing out the filter probably only took me 20-30 minutes minus all the other bullshit. I did notice that with the Purolator filter it was a little more snug with the bracket. I had to basically take the bracket off of the car (just squeeze it together, easy to figure out). I positioned the new filter where it should go and connected both ends. Got the nut finger tight and then put the bracket back on. I had to put the top side of the bracket in the notch first then the bottom side had to be pushed on a good bit to get back into the bottom bracket slot. Once that was all good I tighented up the bolt on the filter.
The AC Delco filter might be a better fit and not require screwing with the bracket much. Anything I put on the car would have to be better than the old probably stock part from 85k ago. That filter was nearly black on the inside all the way around from what I could tell.
Everything overall minus the jack stand bs went really well and was pretty straight forward. I used a large plastic paint roller tray that I got at walmart for like a dollar to catch the gas that drained out of everything. Cheap and worked great. I put the excess gas in a storage container I also got at walmart for like 7 bucks. Should work till I figure out how the hell you dispose of it. Was pretty grainy so I don't think it should go back in the car.
More updates to come with coolant temp sensor replacement and spark plugs! Thanks to all of you guys so far for the help and suggestions. I'm confidet I'm making some progress with this and learning a lot along the way.
FOR ANY OTHER FELLOW NEWBS TO CAR STUFF READ ON - (might be a good chuckle for others that know wtf they are doing! LOL)
I had the most trouble during all of this with putting the rear end of the car on jack stands. Probably would help if I knew what more of the **** under the car actually is and does (working on that).
I tried using the pictures on installuniveristy for LS1 lift points, and it didn't seem like my car wanted to sit level. One of the jack stands kept shifting and was on 1 leg. I'm not getting under a car like that!! It could possibly be that my driveway isn't level enough. Tried 5 or 6 times of moving it forward and backwards in that area showed in the pics. No luck and was getting pissed off!
At any rate I ended up jacking it up by the rear differential housing or (pumpkin) i guess it's sometimes called. I had to use a block of wood on my shitty *** jack to get it up high enough for cinder blocks. I basically just got it high enough to slide those under the back wheels. Careful with this too that you don't get into the cover of the differential as stated on the installu site. Dropped it down on the cinder blocks with the parking brake on and chocks on the front wheels.
If you have a good jack it will reach and rigging up the wood block isn't necessary. I forgot about the low clearance racing jack I bought at harbor freight last winter when it was on sale. I used this too for more support on the side I was working on to swap the filter. It would have worked better than the rig job on the rear diff. I'd recommend that jack, it's pretty nice.
Left both jacks in place and put jack stands under where it looked like it might save my *** if anything crazy happened and the car fell off the blocks or something. Checked the car real well before I went under also. Very sturdy.
The actual job of changing out the filter probably only took me 20-30 minutes minus all the other bullshit. I did notice that with the Purolator filter it was a little more snug with the bracket. I had to basically take the bracket off of the car (just squeeze it together, easy to figure out). I positioned the new filter where it should go and connected both ends. Got the nut finger tight and then put the bracket back on. I had to put the top side of the bracket in the notch first then the bottom side had to be pushed on a good bit to get back into the bottom bracket slot. Once that was all good I tighented up the bolt on the filter.
The AC Delco filter might be a better fit and not require screwing with the bracket much. Anything I put on the car would have to be better than the old probably stock part from 85k ago. That filter was nearly black on the inside all the way around from what I could tell.
Everything overall minus the jack stand bs went really well and was pretty straight forward. I used a large plastic paint roller tray that I got at walmart for like a dollar to catch the gas that drained out of everything. Cheap and worked great. I put the excess gas in a storage container I also got at walmart for like 7 bucks. Should work till I figure out how the hell you dispose of it. Was pretty grainy so I don't think it should go back in the car.
More updates to come with coolant temp sensor replacement and spark plugs! Thanks to all of you guys so far for the help and suggestions. I'm confidet I'm making some progress with this and learning a lot along the way.
Last edited by iLLuSi0nz; 05-05-2013 at 09:35 AM.
05-05-2013, 09:27 PM
#40
lol. Been there my friend. Good job making sure the car was stable and safe before getting under there. Why take a chance just to save a few minutes...
I'd bet anything the coolant sensor is your problem and good luck!
Please do post back when you do get it fixed. So many times I've found a similar problem to one I've had by searching and the person will get it fixed in the end but never post back on here what the solution was. Frustrating to say the least.
I'd bet anything the coolant sensor is your problem and good luck!
Please do post back when you do get it fixed. So many times I've found a similar problem to one I've had by searching and the person will get it fixed in the end but never post back on here what the solution was. Frustrating to say the least.